Re: [Linphone-developers] bug tracker

[Anton Pomozov]

Hello.

I read an email from Test Sv, and I think I should answer it.
First, I am not a member of the linphone team and I have no relations with 
Belledonne Communications at all.

I have some experience of integration the developer's software in small teams 
and forming acceptable workflow.
And I understand how much time and efforts it may takes to build a good enough 
process of the software develop.

As everyone of you did, I tried to send a small patch few months ago too. I 
received same silence in the answer.
Do you really think something will change if a bug-tracker system will be 
installed?
You will write same lonely issues to the bug-tracker as same as it was in mail 
list because the reason is not in the tool.

I just want to say one simple thing - if you think that your suggestion as 
simple to implement as you imagine, just try to build your own system and show 
it us.
The project licensed by GPL, fork it, keep it synced with base branch, 
integrate your favorite bug-tracker and apply patches.

And now the "answers":

> I find the email from Anton Pomozov is very disappointing and concerning. The 
> email is nothing more than excuses and lip service.

Good start.

> He is trying to make sound that they received hundreds or thousands of emails 
> every day, and they need such a sophisticated and expensive system to manage 
> all of that info, while in reality, it is only one or few emails every day 
> (based on what I receive).

Do you figure out how large this project is?
Do you know how to accept a patch to the large project and do not break it at 
unexpected place?

> While many developers (including myself) are welling and able to help the 
> project in different ways

It is not completely true. I understand your noble impulse, but "just send a 
patch" is not enough. It is even not a half of all efforts to accept it.

> , his response is: if you think you can do a better job,, start your own fork 
> and project yourself,

Rule of thumb - first, show us what you can.

> instead of welcoming new contributors to the projects as part of the team

It is a lot of work. Do the maintainers have resources for it?

> , as typical of the open source community. 

Please give us an example of some "open source community" where a patch from 
outside goes to the production as immediately as it was received?

> I wonder if he will answer by saying that small team is easier to manage?.

What?

> He is trying to give the impression that they do such a huge amount of work, 
> while in reality, they have not done any meaningful contribution to the 
> project for almost two years, 

Did you hear about CI used in this project?
Did you tried either to read or fix build-scripts?
Who support and evolve it? Look to their git somehow.
Do you understand how much efforts it takes to keep them alive for so many 
platforms supported by the project?

> and do not answer almost any of the emails thay get.

Do they should answer to everyone?

> The project team is very secretive and closed in a very unusual way. There is 
> no openness or transparency of any kind, and do not welcome any outsiders. 
> This is completely against everything that the open source comunity represents

Do they owe you?
It is their choice. Just respect it.

> He raised the issue of if someone has enough money, he can start his own fork 
> and project which raised another issue if the project team is working full 
> time on the project, and where they are getting their financial support?

Good question! You are on the right way.

> , if it is their money, or from other sources?. 

As I understand the Belledonne Communications company earns money on licensing 
their product for commercial use.
As you can see it is not enough to implement what do you want.

> However, once again the team is very closed and secretive and do not welcome 
> any outsiders?.

It is their choice. Just respect it.

> For the record, I noticed in the last few years that number of so called open 
> source project that operate in a similar fashion is increasing.

May you enumerate some of them, please. I very interested in it and can't find 
any alternative.

> There are even few open source projects that do not disclose their source 
> code?, so much for the open source?.

What?


P.S. I really interest in the future of this project.
I want communicative developers, live community and useful bug-tracker too.
What do you offer to do to implement it all?
Do you think the maintainers do not understand our desires?
As I think they have clear priorities to support commercial users first. I 
hope. Because if not, it is very sad because the project as it looks now is 
more dead than live.

Regards,
Anton Pomozov

> 13 янв. 2015 г., в 12:59, Test Sv <address@hidden> написал(а):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello;
> 
> I find the email from Anton Pomozov is very disappointing and concerning. The 
> email is nothing more than excuses and lip service.
> 
> He is trying to make sound that they received hundreds or thousands of emails 
> every day, and they need such a sophisticated and expensive system to manage 
> all of that info, while in reality, it is only one or few emails every day 
> (based on what I receive).
> 
> While many developers (including myself) are welling and able to help the 
> project in different ways, his response is: if you think you can do a better 
> job,, start your own fork and project yourself, instead of welcoming new 
> contributors to the projects as part of the team, as typical of the open 
> source community. I wonder if he will answer by saying that small team is 
> easier to manage?.
> 
> He is trying to give the impression that they do such a huge amount of work, 
> while in reality, they have not done any meaningful contribution to the 
> project for almost two years, and do not answer almost any of the emails thay 
> get.
> 
> The project team is very secretive and closed in a very unusual way. There is 
> no openness or transparency of any kind, and do not welcome any outsiders. 
> This is completely against everything that the open source comunity 
> represents.
> 
> He raised the issue of if someone has enough money, he can start his own fork 
> and project which raised another issue if the project team is working full 
> time on the project, and where they are getting their financial support?, if 
> it is their money, or from other sources?. However, once again the team is 
> very closed and secretive and do not welcome any outsiders?.
> 
> For the record, I noticed in the last few years that number of so called open 
> source project that operate in a similar fashion is increasing. There are 
> even few open source projects that do not disclose their source code?, so 
> much for the open source?.
> 
> Finally, I agree with the comment by another developer that linphone software 
> is a nice piece of software (but with many issues), and that is why they like 
> to support it, NOT to beak away?.
> 
> Regads;
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 1/12/15, Anton Pomozov <address@hidden> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [Linphone-developers] bug tracker
> To: address@hidden
> Date: Monday, January 12, 2015, 5:16 AM
> 
> It is not as simple as
> someone may imagine.
> "Just create
> bug-tracker" is a one small step at a long long yellow
> brick road.
> 
> In addition to
> the public bug-tracker you still need CVS, automatic build
> and deploy system, CI and test servers.
> All
> of them should be tight integrate to minimize efforts of
> developers to integrate patches and apply changes.
> To "simple apply patch" you should
> have big number of test cases of all kinds - unit,
> functionality, regress, integrate.
> You also
> should have wide and enough smart workflow for fixing issue,
> apply patch, develop new branch with new functionality or
> bug fixing in release branches.
> Someone
> should support documentation for all this stuff and for
> projects API, user stories, etc.
> 
> Does anyone of you have enough time, money and
> knowledge to build whole infrastructure for that project?
> If you can do all this stuff and keep it
> opensource and free (at least for non commercial use) just
> fork a current project and go ahead!
> Everyone of us will say thank you very much!
> 
> Through some kind of magic
> this project still alive and it is good enough to use it for
> our purposes, and many thanks to the maintainers for
> this.
> 
>> 12 янв. 2015
> г., в 11:57, Henrik Pauli <address@hidden>
> написал(а):
>> 
>> I have a *patch* that's been regularly
> ignored for 3 years :)
>> 
>> On 11/01/15 23:54, Liviu Andronic
> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at
> 11:04 PM, Peter Villeneuve <address@hidden>
> wrote:
>>>> I don't think so.
>>>> I have the exact same problem. I
> posted a bug about the Samsung Notes 2 and
>>>> 3 here but never got any replies.
> I also noticed another user posted a
>>>> similar bug here months ago and he
> was also ignored (and the bug continues).
>>>> 
>>> I'd
> like to add my voice to this. Often I hesitate whether it is
> worth
>>> my effort reporting this or
> that annoying bug that makes Linphone
>>> unusable, simply because most of the
> times my reports on the ML get
>>> 
> unnoticed, or at the very least don't get any replies.
> From the users'
>>> perspective,
> incredibly frustrating, as it's no fun when your
> efforts
>>> are almost surely going to
> waste. And this most certainly dampens many
>>> users' enthusiasm to help Linphone
> devels track down issues with their
>>> 
> open-source software...
>>> 
>>> So yeah, a real bug tracker would be
> so much nicer. As would be more
>>> 
> interaction from Linphone devels. Knowing that a bug was
> heard, that
>>> it was discussed, and
> that it was decided to wontfix or to fix (and
>>> that there is an approximate time
> frame, say, before the end of next
>>> 
> year) is most satisfying for your users...
>>> 
>>> Perhaps
> Linphone needs a dedicated community organizer, or
> similar?
>>> 
>>> 
> Best regards,
>>> Liviu
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> In fact, if you look through the
> archives, you'll notice most bug reports
>>>> never get any replies.
>>>> Not the most organized open source
> project I've seen...
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 9:30 PM,
> Eric Toombs <address@hidden>
> wrote:
>>>>> Does linphone have a
> /real/ bug tracker? I posted a couple bugs on this
>>>>> mailing list a year ago or so,
> and they were just buried, which is what
>>>>> usually happens on a mailing
> list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Linphone-developers mailing
> list
>>>>> address@hidden
>>>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/linphone-developers
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> _______________________________________________
>>>> Linphone-developers mailing
> list
>>>> address@hidden
>>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/linphone-developers
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
>> Linphone-developers mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/linphone-developers
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Linphone-developers mailing list
> address@hidden
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/linphone-developers
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Linphone-developers mailing list
> address@hidden
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/linphone-developers