Re: [wip-cite-new] Initial implementation of `biblatex' citation processor

[Denis Maier]

Am 20.05.2021 um 15:22 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:07 AM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org> wrote:
> > Am 20.05.2021 um 12:36 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> > > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:18 AM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org> wrote:
>
> > > > But maybe cite/plain or cite/basic or so?
> > >
> > > First, are those two suggestions just synonyms for cite/bare?
> >
> > Yes. Nicolas complained about cite/bare so I've thought cite/plain may
> > be nicer. (See autocite=plain) But the biblatex manual uses itself the
> > term "bare".
>
> OK.
>
> I don't care; I suggested "bare" because the earlier "alt" was super vague.
>
> > > Or are you indeed suggesting completely changing the current logic of
> > > these styles and substyles? E.g "bare' substyle becomes rather a
> > > "plain" or "basic" style?
> >
> > I'm not really sure we need bare substyles at all. At least in biblatex
> > it's the basis for the other commands.
>
> Though see my followup message on autocite config.
>
> Does that change this discussion?

Why?

[...]

> > #+begin_example
> > At the beginning Doe argues this and that (2020, p. 20). He goes on to
> > say blabla, see ibid., p. 23.
> > #+end_example
> >
> > In order to get the ibid., you'll need a \cite* instead of just a
> > \citeyear or so.
>
> Shouldn't that example be covered in org-cite by, respectively ...
>
> cite/year
> cite/bare (or plain)

Hmm, yes. The example was not ideal. Works better in an author title style:

#+begin_example
At the beginning Doe argues this and that (Title, p. 20). Later, Doe 
then says blabla, see ibid., p. 23.
#+end_example

You'd get that with
#+begin_example
At the beginning Doe argues this and that \parencite*[20]{doe}. Later, 
Doe then says blabla, see \cite*[23]{doe}.
#+end_example

cite/year => \citeyear won't work as this will just print the year 
without wrapping it in parentheses. It also won't trigger the ibid. in 
the next citation.
cite/bare = \cite would also work in that particular citation, but an 
author might remove the preceding sentence, which will make the ibid. 
disappear. You will then have a regular bare citation (= "Doe 2020", or 
"Doe, Title") instead of just the year or the title in parentheses.

> ...?
>
> > > And how would all of this map to natbib and citeproc? >
> > > The style+substyles really should work well across the output formats,
> > > and gracefully fallback if certain variants, particularly in biblatex,
> > > aren't available in other formats.
> > >
> > > Is that the case with your suggested changes?
> >
> > The problem is indeed portability between csl and biblatex (and natbib).
> > I think it's unavoidable that users who use biblatex specific commands
> > loose that to a certain degree. Fallback mappings should be added, of
> > course, but they will only get you so far. We should probably indicate
> > which commands work in all packages so users can make their decisions
> > consciously.
>
> Yes, it seems highly likely that some of biblatex just won't fully
> work in other formats.
>
> But ideally we'd limit that.

Absolutely!

Denis