RE: [External] : menu-item uses no dot period before item-property-list in examples

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 4:56 AM, uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote:


> ------- Original Message -------
> On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 4:36 AM, Drew Adams drew.adams@oracle.com 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > > > So why bother users in the manual why that is never actually used.
> > > > > (menu-item item-name real-binding item-property-list)
> > > > 
> > > > I hope you meant this, which is not the same thing:
> > > > (menu-item item-name real-binding
> > > > . item-property-list)
> > > > 
> > > > item-property-list is not an element of the
> > > > overall list. It's "spliced" into that list,
> > > > as its tail.
> > > 
> > > Actual code implementations using menu-item does not include
> > > '.' before 'item-property-list'.
> > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list)
> > 
> > Look again. item-property-list must be a list.
> > That list is not included as an element in
> > the list that starts (menu-item....
> > 
> > Instead, the elements of item-property-list
> > are included as elements of list (menu-item....
> > That's apparently what you're not getting.

Right, there is just a single list (menu-item.... with
elements in item-property-list appended to the list (menu-item....
 
> > Example:
> > 
> > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file
> > :help "Load this Elisp file")
> > 
> > item-name is "Load".
> > real-binding is diredp-load-this-file
> > item-property-list is
> > this 2-element list: (:help
> > "Load this Elisp file")
> > 
> > You do not see this:
> > 
> > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file
> > (:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file"))
> > ^ ^
> > 
> > which is equal to this:
> > 
> > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file
> > . ((:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file")))
> > ^ ^ ^
> > 
> > What you do see is equal to this:
> > 
> > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file
> > . (:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file"))
> > 
> > Now ask yourself why the syntax spec
> > shows a dot before item-property-list.
> > 
> > If you still don't get it, take a break,
> > stand on your head for a few minutes, run
> > around the block, then study this again...
> > till you do.
> > 
> > When you finally get it, go look at the
> > Emacs documentation that introduces lists
> > and their notation. You'll find it very
> > clear, I think. All of this is explained.
> > 
> > And yes, you should read the basics, such
> > as notation, before you start trying to
> > interpret the use of such notation in the
> > doc. E.g., before you try to interpret the
> > presentation of the syntax of extended menu
> > items, learn about Lisp dot notation.
> > 
> > And as has also been said, this isn't just
> > a doc notational convention. It's in fact
> > the actual, effective, real-life Lisp list
> > syntax.
> 
> 
> Will check things out.
> 
> > Crawl, then walk, before trying to run.
> > That way, you'll find that running isn't
> > so difficult, mysterious, confusing, scary,
> > or user-unfriendly.
> > 
> > And that way maybe you'll stop kvetching
> > that you're "drowning" and that folks need
> > to quickly line up and start saving you.
> > 
> > Don't presume that those trying to help you
> > don't get it. You're not the first person
> > to learn Lisp, and you're not the first one
> > that people here, and Emacs itself, has
> > helped.

Have looked at the reference manual section

2.4.6.2 Dotted Pair Notation

I do view it as very comprehensive.  Perhaps it can be elaborated 
about the thing happening with  

(menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list)

Or do you think it is good enough for understanding the above
clause readily without expert experience?