RE: [External] : menu-item uses no dot period before item-property-list in examples

[uzibalqa]

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------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 3:10 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> 
wrote:


> > > > Have read about
> > > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list)
> > > > but when things actually get implemented there exist no dot period
> > > > before 'item-property-list'.
> > > > 
> > > > (define-key global-map
> > > > [menu-bar mcp-topm daphne-subm entry-sweep]
> > > > '(menu-item "Entry Sweep" gilgamesh-entry-sweep
> > > > :help "Entry Sweep"))
> > > 
> > > Yes, there is. And you've been told before
> > > that (a . (b c)) is the same as (a b c).
> > > 
> > > For simplicity, Lisp printing removes the
> > > dot and parens: . (...). This is standard
> > > Lisp syntax convenience: we write (a b c)
> > > instead of (a . (b . (c . nil))). That's
> > > all there is to it.
> > 
> > So why bother users in the manual why that is never actually used.
> > (menu-item item-name real-binding item-property-list)
> 
> 
> I hope you meant this, which is not the same thing:
> 
> (menu-item item-name real-binding
> . item-property-list)
> 
> item-property-list is not an element of the
> overall list. It's "spliced" into that list,
> as its tail.
> 
> What "bother" are you referring to?
> item-property-list is a list. That's all.
> 
> Lisp users like/need? to understand dotted
> list notation, and its abbreviated read and
> print notation, i.e., the fact that
> 
> (a b c) = (a . (b . (c . nil)))
> 
> If you intend to use Elisp, then you should
> intend to read about and understand its read
> and print syntax. And if you use Elisp to
> create menus then you should intend to read
> and understand a syntax description such as
> 
> (menu-item item-name real-binding
> . item-property-list)
> 
> > > And you've asked this before, and you've
> > > been pointed to the Elisp doc, which
> > > explains all of this in detail, even with
> > > diagrams and examples.
> > > 
> > > Please, Ask Emacs. Many people, over many
> > > years, have gone to the trouble of writing
> > > good, clear help and doc.
> > 
> > That's your assertion. Bothering us with jargon that never gets used is
> > just being silly to those who do not have time for nonsense intended only
> > for general language interest rather than practicality.
> 
> 
> What "jargon that never gets used" are you referring to?
> 
> Apparently what you call "bother" is what Emacs
> offers as doc to try to help its users.
> 
> Who is bothering whom, with your "Help Me!!!??
> I'm drowning!!!?!!" pleas for help? Do you ever
> wonder why people - even very patient people -
> give up on you after a while for not trying to
> help yourself a bit?
> 
> > The dot should be removed from the documentation
> > and have
> 
> ^^^^^^^^ ?
> 
> What dot, where? And have what? Is it possible
> for you to see that you just toss half-articulated
> demands and pleas over the wall and then expect
> help and mind-reading?

Actual code implementations using menu-item does not include
'.' before 'item-property-list'.

(menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list)

> Maybe try ChatGPT instead?

Maybe it would be someone's replicant here ! ;)
 
> > > And you can find the same thing outside of
> > > Emacs, in any number of Lisp introductions.
> > > 
> > > Help yourself.