Re: Tree-sitter maturity

[Björn Bidar]

Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com> writes:

>> On Dec 20, 2024, at 1:13 AM, Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de> wrote:
>> 
>> Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 5:34 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> From: Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 14:11:51 -0800
>>>>> Cc: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@mavit.org.uk>,
>>>>> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,
>>>>> Emacs Devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
>>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It’s also worth noting that Tree-sitter itself is somewhat
>>>>>> immature; the developers say that until it reaches version 1.0, we
>>>>>> should be wary of potentially unannounced incompatible changes
>>>>>> (although they are trying harder to avoid this, over time).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [1] https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/editors/tree-sitter
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wonder if we can formalize a way for tree-sitter major modes to
>>>>> state the compatible version of language grammar it uses. Maybe a
>>>>> package.el cookies, or a variable that set, or even just comments
>>>>> in the beginning of the file.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many major modes already adds entries to treesit-language-source-alist, 
>>>>> that could be a good option too.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I especially want built-in major modes to give a version, so that
>>>>> packagers can package Emacs with the right version of tree-sitter
>>>>> grammar. I know Eli has problems with pinning a grammar version for
>>>>> builtin modes before, but I wonder what’s he’s stance now?
>>>> 
>>>> What's changed?
>>> 
>>> People are starting to package tree-sitter and tree-sitter
>>> grammars. If Emacs can be packaged with the right grammars, then
>>> tree-sitter modes will work out-of-the-box.
>> 
>> Please don't. That would require nodejs to build Emacs bundled with
>> these grammars. These grammar packages are also not just used with
>> Emacs.
>> 
>> Grammars are very easy to package once the infrastructure to reuse the
>> packaging automation in the package manager is there. Don't try to
>> reinvent that IMHO. If you must generated and build the parser implement
>> a bindings.gyp parser so you can automate the compilation process
>> independently of the grammar.
>
> There might be some misunderstanding. We don’t want to build the
> grammars as part of building Emacs. Ideally building the grammars are
> the package managers job. We just want to list the versions of
> grammars that are known to work with the major modes, so packagers
> have an easier time to package Emacs with the right version of
> grammars.

Ah ok now I understand. I don't think that would work.

>> 
>> For reference here's my implementation of it in python:
>> https://build.opensuse.org/projects/editors:tree-sitter/packages/tree-sitter/files/tree-sitter-target.py?expand=1
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Many language grammars don't make official releases and thus don't
>>>> have versions.  Moreover, AFAIK there's no API to determine the
>>>> version of the grammar library we load.  So how can we manage such
>>>> version-pinning in a way that (a) is up-to-date, and (b) doesn't
>>>> preclude people from using a grammar library due to false negatives?
>>> 
>>> I’m talking about a softer pin. We’re basically providing a “known to
>>> work” version. This way packagers can package Emacs with a
>>> known-to-work version of grammar, so the builtin modes work
>>> out-of-the-box. This doesn’t prevent people from using a newer version
>>> and sending us a bug report, and we still try our best to make the
>>> major modes work with the newest grammar.
>>> 
>>> If the grammar doesn’t have an explicit version, then we can just use a 
>>> commit hash. I believe all the packaging systems support that?
>> 
>> That doesn't make sense as the versions numbers are arbitrary, e.g. not
>> always does the version number relate the changes to grammar but also to
>> the in-tree dependencies in the repository packaging the
>> language-grammar bindings which have nothing todo with the parser.
>
> Sure, let’s call it snapshot then. I just want to make sure when
> packagers package Emacs with tree-sitter grammars, the grammar works
> with Emacs’s major mode.

The point was that now matter what you call the development of grammars
is more or less fluent. Maybe there are some more mature grammar but
those should be the minority.
But lets just assume for a second it would be possible to freeze or
recommend the supported grammar versions. The development of grammars is
to fast for that, especially for builtin modes.

>> 
>> What matters much more is the tree-sitter version which is more related
>> to Emacs itself rather than the particular version of the grammar.
>
> The tree-sitter library version is up to the packagers right? As long as it 
> satisfies Emacs’ requirements and is compatible with the bundled grammars.

Do mean bundled or recommended grammars? Grammars bundled would be again
grammars included within the Emacs sources which is a different thing
from what I you were saying further above.

Yes the tree-sitter version is up to the package or respectively the
distribution.
The only issue that existed regarding was that tree-sitter once broke
the ABI without bumping the sover but that's fixed now or was fixed when
Emacs correctly rebuilt once a dependency of it changed.