Re: [Ranger-users] A new approach to build the user interface of the future!

[Germain Z.]

It's not about belief or preference -- it's been scientifically proven
Emacs is superior for productivity: keep reading for more info. Aloof
Lispr Inc. actually conducted a lengthy analysis and compared the
productivity of people who use Emacs key bindings in their daily lives
with people who use vim key bindings.

The analysis took various habits and professions into consideration,
and even took a look at people switching from one to another. More
than 142015 vim pros and 115204 Emacs pros participated in the study,
so please don't tell me the values aren't representative enough. A
2010% increase in productivity was recorded for users switching from
vim to Emacs key bindings, versus a -2012% difference for people going
from Emas to vim bindings (jugglers between vim and Emacs didn't fare
so well, with a -2018% difference).

In fact, only 0.0201514% to 0.0201541% of vim users were able to
maintain higher productivity with vim after extensive training
sessions with Emacs.
For comparison, only 1.42015×10-⁹ to 4.12015×10-⁹ of Emacs users
switching to vim were able to maintain higher productivity after
extensive training sessions with vim. Again, this was all done by a
trusted statistics company, Aloof Lispr, and I highly doubt it is
faked in any manner. The research was also reviewed and approved by
renowned statisticians, including but not limited to Proal Foils,
Ripls Poalfo and Sliaf Loopr.

With all that in mind, I think hut is making a glorious decision on
this day. 4-1-2015 will be marked down in history as the day Emacs got
a real file manager, greatly benefiting the world. It will probably
end up being one of the direct causes to finding the cure for all
known illnesses. All praise.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Gerald Klein <address@hidden> wrote:
> It's not about belief at all, it is about preference, what arguments have
> more fury then the Vim vs Emacs arguments, it is to the point of Ideology,
> and more simply, why should I learn a whole CRAP LOAD of more commands, my
> job is not learning Ranger is writing code. I need dependable fast tools
> that I know. So I will hold back the upgrade till it refuses to function,
> then I guess finds something else.
>
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Andres MRM <address@hidden> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Unbelievers...
>> I find your lack of faith disturbing.
>>
>>
>> Quoting Gerald Klein (2015-04-01 09:39:01)
>> > I apologize but I won't be changing to Emacs bindings, why would I
>> > change from
>> > hitting one key to hitting many for the same result, explain why this is
>> > better, (that is sarcastic, it's not better)
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 1:34 AM, Cédric Picard <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >
>> >     That actually sounds pretty thoughtful. Being able to plug emacs
>> >     plugins in ranger, we won't have to go out of ranger for anything.
>> > We
>> >     will even be able to disable Ctrl+k and stop providing a way to go
>> >     out. That would a nice feature as it was proved that the more
>> >     difficult it is to exit a system, the easier it is to learn it
>> >     deeply.
>> >
>> >     I can't wait to be able to browse the internet in ranger-browser
>> >     while listening to the ranger-music-player-daemon.
>> >
>> >     However, Python isn't a GNU standard language so if we really want
>> > to
>> >     benefit from it I think that it is important to rewrite ranger in
>> >     lisp. Emacs lisp seems the best suited flavor for this.
>> >
>> >     What do you think?
>> >
>> >     On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 07:15:11AM +0200, Miodrag Milic wrote:
>> >     > Cedric dude
>> >     >
>> >     > Are you high or something ?? You have to focus ASAP. This is
>> > historic
>> >     > moment.
>> >     >
>> >     > Since we are now members of the Emacs church i think we should
>> > embrace
>> >     the
>> >     > new religion totally and let ranger implement elisp plugin system,
>> >     > compatible with emacs spec,  so that we can run some or all emacs
>> > plugins
>> >     > within ranger. I know, its a non trivial task but we will help by
>> >     donating
>> >     > and styling documentation. What do you guys say  ? (dont say no,
>> > you know
>> >     > its awesome)
>> >     > On Apr 1, 2015 2:37 AM, "Cédric Picard" <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >     >
>> >     > > Okay, let's be serious.
>> >     > > The great thing about this new release is that now we can use
>> > thoses
>> >     > > free keys to type, but to type what? Well, what's typed most
>> > often in
>> >     > > a file manager is a path.
>> >     > >
>> >     > > So let's think about it for a second: what if we typed nothing
>> > but
>> >     > > paths? It's common knowledge on Unix that everything is a file.
>> > I
>> >     > > think we might be able to pull something out of it.
>> >     > >
>> >     > > What I propose is to implement a ranger file system (rangerfs)
>> > that
>> >     > > will allow us to use our file systems more efficiently.
>> >     > >
>> >     > > Examples:
>> >     > >
>> >     > > Moving a file could be accessing:
>> >     > >
>> >     > > /tmp/ranger/move/+FILE+/home/cym13/file/+TO+/tmp/newFile
>> >     > >
>> >     > > Copy? Easy!
>> >     > >
>> >     > > /tmp/ranger/copy/+FILE+/home/cym13/file/+TO+/tmp/newFile
>> >     > >
>> >     > > Opening with a program with vim:
>> >     > >
>> >     > > /tmp/ranger/open/+WITH+/usr/bin/vim/+FILE+/home/cym13/file/
>> >     > >
>> >     > > With rifle:
>> >     > >
>> >     > > /tmp/ranger/open/+WITH+/usr/bin/rifle/+FILE+/home/cym13/file/
>> >     > >
>> >     > > Notice how useful it would be! And the best is that it would not
>> > be
>> >     > > limited to ranger as any program able to deal with files would
>> > be
>> >     > > able to use the full power of ranger!
>> >     > >
>> >     > > Honestly, don't you think it would be interesting?
>> >     > >
>> >     > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 02:04:02AM +0200, hut wrote:
>> >     > > > I have the feeling that you guys are pulling my leg.  It's a
>> > serious
>> >     > > > problem.  How about we use the free key bindings to add
>> > commands for
>> >     > > > navigation, file operations and other useful tasks?
>> >     > > >
>> >     > > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 01:29:09AM +0200, Miodrag Milic wrote:
>> >     > > > > >Hey Miodrag, got any idea what to do with all the keys that
>> > are
>> >     > > unused now?
>> >     > > > > YES.
>> >     > > > >
>> >     > > > > You should bind those to some great applications and sites
>> > needed
>> >     by
>> >     > > > > everyone like thunderbird, minecraft, facebook ...
>> >     > > > >
>> >     > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 1:16 AM, Cédric Picard
>> > <address@hidden>
>> >     > > wrote:
>> >     > > > >
>> >     > > > > > I think the least would be to print a big red warning
>> > message
>> >     > > > > > explaining why typing on a key alone should be deprecated.
>> >     > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > Or print an ascii punny per key. That could be fun. Like a
>> >     child's
>> >     > > > > > mode. « Son, when you are old enough, I'll teach you the
>> > Meta
>> >     key.
>> >     > > > > > Right now, play with the punnies. »
>> >     > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 01:07:43AM +0200, hut wrote:
>> >     > > > > > > Hey Miodrag, got any idea what to do with all the keys
>> > that are
>> >     > > unused
>> >     > > > > > now?
>> >     > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 12:54:02AM +0200, Miodrag Milic
>> > wrote:
>> >     > > > > > > > Nobody is being sarcastic here !
>> >     > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > The change is already well documented (great work hut
>> > as
>> >     always,
>> >     > > > > > cheers)
>> >     > > > > > > > RTFM and start testing ASAP, don't wait for free
>> > treatment,
>> >     just
>> >     > > buy
>> >     > > > > > some
>> >     > > > > > > > B6  <http://goo.gl/0Jxut7>and you are ready to go !
>> >     > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 12:40 AM, Gerald Klein
>> > <address@hidden>
>> >     > > wrote:
>> >     > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > What is the change?? Without the sarcasm
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:15 PM, feel.squally <
>> >     > > > > > address@hidden>
>> >     > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > >> With vim key bindings for scrolling down along the
>> > files
>> >     in a
>> >     > > > > > directory
>> >     > > > > > > > >> you just need one finger typing j.
>> >     > > > > > > > >>
>> >     > > > > > > > >> I guess with emacs you need C+n that implies TWO
>> > fingers.
>> >     > > > > > > > >>
>> >     > > > > > > > >> Also, if this change is about a concern of freedom,
>> > is
>> >     there
>> >     > > the
>> >     > > > > > FREEDOM
>> >     > > > > > > > >> to choose between vim and emacs key bindings like
>> > tmux
>> >     does?
>> >     > > > > > > > >> If so, I am happy with this change otherwise I
>> > think
>> >     ranger
>> >     > > will
>> >     > > > > > lose
>> >     > > > > > > > >> users pretty soon.
>> >     > > > > > > > >> Il 31/mar/2015 22:52 "Miodrag Milic" <
>> >     address@hidden>
>> >     > > ha
>> >     > > > > > > > >> scritto:
>> >     > > > > > > > >>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>> > Imagine a text editor where you can just type in
>> > some
>> >     > > keys, and
>> >     > > > > > they
>> >     > > > > > > > >>> appear on
>> >     > > > > > > > >>> the screen.  Just like that.
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>> OMG, I didn't even know such thing exists!!!!
>> > PLEASE!!!
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:41 PM, Gerald Klein <
>> >     > > address@hidden>
>> >     > > > > > wrote:
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> Can someone please tell if this is a joke, I'm
>> > serious I
>> >     > > can't
>> >     > > > > > tell?
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:20 PM, hut 
>> > <address@hidden>
>> > wrote:
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> So, ranger has been around for almost 6 years,
>> > and
>> >     after
>> >     > > all
>> >     > > > > > this time
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> of
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> optimizing and re-evaluating, I think we need a
>> >     paradigm
>> >     > > shift
>> >     > > > > > in the
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> way
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> ranger works.
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> There are going to be a few changes starting
>> > with the
>> >     > > upcoming
>> >     > > > > > 1.7.0
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> release
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> which can be tested now already by running the
>> > current
>> >     git
>> >     > > > > > version:
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>   git clone https://github.com/hut/ranger.git -b
>> >     current
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>   cd ranger
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>   ./ranger.py
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> I sincerely believe now that trying to copy the
>> > vim
>> >     user
>> >     > > > > > experience
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> was wrong
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> on many levels, because clearly emacs is the
>> > better
>> >     > > editor.  It's
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> build on the
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> idea of freedom, of elegance and of having to
>> > press
>> >     > > modifier
>> >     > > > > > keys all
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> the time.
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> If that doesn't convince you yet, how about
>> > this:
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> Imagine a text editor where you can just type in
>> > some
>> >     > > keys, and
>> >     > > > > > they
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> appear on
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> the screen.  Just like that.  No silly modes, no
>> > crazy
>> >     > > things
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> happening by
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> typing random characters on the keyboard (think
>> > ggdGZZ,
>> >     it
>> >     > > > > > deletes
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> your whole
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> text, then saves the file and quits the editor!
>> > How
>> >     crazy
>> >     > > is
>> >     > > > > > that?!)
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> No.  Using Emacs key bindings is the only sane
>> > way to
>> >     do
>> >     > > it.
>> >     > > > > > Check
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> out the
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> new key bindings on the man page:
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> http://ranger.nongnu.org/ranger.1.html
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> Of course ranger has no concept of "typing in
>> > text"
>> >     like
>> >     > > emacs
>> >     > > > > > does,
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> so typing
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> in keys without modifiers will do nothing at
>> > all.
>> >     > > Basically you
>> >     > > > > > will
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> have to
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> use modifier keys for everything you do.  But
>> > still
>> >     it's
>> >     > > > > > obviously
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> better than
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> vim-like key bindings.  ***BONUS*** The first
>> > 100 to
>> >     > > upgrade
>> >     > > > > > will get
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> a free
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> treatment for their future carpal tunnel
>> > syndrome!
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> Regards,
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>> hut
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> --
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> Gerald Klein DBA
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> address@hidden
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> www.geraldklein.com <http://geraldklein.com/>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> geraldklein.wordpress.com
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> address@hidden
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> 708-599-0352
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> Arch, Gentoo I3, Ranger & Vim the coding triple
>> > threat.
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> Linux registered user #548580
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>> Brought to you by the Amish Mafia
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >>>
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > --
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > Gerald Klein DBA
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > address@hidden
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > www.geraldklein.com <http://geraldklein.com/>
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > geraldklein.wordpress.com
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > address@hidden
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > 708-599-0352
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > Arch, Gentoo I3, Ranger & Vim the coding triple
>> > threat.
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > Linux registered user #548580
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > > Brought to you by the Amish Mafia
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > >
>> >     > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > --
>> >     > > > > >
>> >     > > > > >       Cédric Picard
>> >     > > > > >
>> >     > > > > > « No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with
>> > his
>> >     > > privacy,
>> >     > > > > > family, home or correspondence »  Art.12 Universal
>> > Declaration of
>> >     > > Human
>> >     > > > > > Rights
>> >     > > > > >
>> >     > > > > >
>> >     > > >
>> >     > >
>> >     > > --
>> >     > >
>> >     > >       Cédric Picard
>> >     > >
>> >     > > « No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his
>> > privacy,
>> >     > > family, home or correspondence »  Art.12 Universal Declaration
>> > of Human
>> >     > > Rights
>> >     > >
>> >     > >
>> >
>> >     --
>> >
>> >           Cédric Picard
>> >
>> >     « No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his
>> > privacy,
>> >     family, home or correspondence »  Art.12 Universal Declaration of
>> > Human
>> >     Rights
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Gerald Klein DBA
>> >
>> > address@hidden
>> >
>> > www.geraldklein.com
>> >
>> > geraldklein.wordpress.com
>> >
>> > address@hidden
>> >
>> > 708-599-0352
>> >
>> >
>> > Arch, Gentoo I3, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.
>> >
>> > Linux registered user #548580
>> >
>> > Brought to you by the Amish Mafia
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Gerald Klein DBA
>
> address@hidden
>
> www.geraldklein.com
>
> geraldklein.wordpress.com
>
> address@hidden
>
> 708-599-0352
>
>
> Arch, Gentoo I3, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.
>
> Linux registered user #548580
>
> Brought to you by the Amish Mafia