Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Björn Bidar]

Moakt Temporary Email <6bbf4f1ea5cc@drmail.in> writes:

> Hi Björn,
>
> Thank you for your interest in the topic.
>
>> I don't want change any term either but Moakt's explanation is very
>> valid. Just shrugging and call of an argument is not good I think.
>> 
>> Language, terminologies evolve and change over time so do interfaces.
>> I think it's inevitable that even Emacs has to go with the time
>> in some shape or form. Requiring or expecting users to learn 48 old
>> language with outdated legacy term is very off putting.
>
> You might be right.  But changing the terminology of a software that
> existed for such a long time, can be a tedious task.  There are also
> many documentations, blogs, books, videos, etc, that would get
> obsolete.
>
> The question that can come up, is it worth to be done ? Or in other words, 
> what this would “really” bring “vs” the things that it would break ?

I'm not saying should be immediate changes to any terminology but also
not be ignorant towards change in general. Any interface no matter the
age could do something better than an existing one.

> Wouldn’t it be better to put all these efforts in other places, which
> can make emacs easier to start with, like the new customization
> interface for example, which might be a bigger obstacle, and might
> have a bigger impact on new users ?

New interfaces doesn't help if the user doesn't understand the words we
use. Knowing how to express oneself is very often part of the difficulty
in finding answers to questions. 

> These terms might not finally be the real obstacle for new users to
> chose emacs, if they are well presented and explained.  I thought
> about it for a while, and proposed a “Get started” introduction to
> emacs (to be accessed from the very startup buffer).

That could help but again that doesn't help to understand interfaces.
Very often new topics pop of over the internet how I do X where X could
be found in the manual but the questions asked made it look like the
terminology used by the user made harder to find the right information
in manuals.

> It will introduce users to some of these terms that are really needed to 
> start using emacs. And the new interface can take care of the remaining terms.
>
> I would be glad if you can take some time and read it, and let me know
> what do you think.  It is the HTML at the end of the following
> message:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/msg00245.html.

I glanced over the document. I'm not sure how much it does to explain
the Emacs window manager to users, e.g. if you use the word window most
users will think of the windows of their window system and not the way
Emacs organizes the content which it shows.

I also wouldn't introduce to much of possible customization at the same
time but suggest possible things to try after the tutorial.

The other thing is that using existing knowledge as examples could help
to understand the introduced concepts. E.g. what is a special buffer?
You could explain a special buffer like an application inside Emacs,
this "application" (or mode in Emacs lingu) doesn't edit a file but
acts on the content it displays similarly like a web-browser displays
the web. 


PS: Please check your configuration, you seem to reply to the thread
without keeping the references to which messsages you reply intact.
It is very hard to follow the conversation when you break threads. I
almost didn't catch the reply to the topic.