On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 16:10 bruce <darkoverlordofdata@gmail.com> wrote:
You are misunderstanding my point. I have stock and deep connections at microsoft. I don't want to mess anything up for anyone. If you were making your own windows on windows, I don't want to see the code, remark that it should work this way .... Low probability of anything ever happening, but risk nonetheless. For both sides.
When I left my employer and talked to a lawyer, he said that the ndas lasts as long as the revenue, and beware, loose lips sink ships. My family benefits from that revenue.
btw - I also wait for the walk signal, I've never been oppressed, and have no problem with the nda. I was well paid, put the kids through school, and paid all their medical expenses.On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 8:45 PM Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:How would using any operating system you like let them down? Or even using whatever api? I imagine it has something to do with GNUstep having some connection with Apple, right?Look at it this way. GNUstep is trying to free the masses from the tyranny of our Jobsian oppressors. Does that help? ;)Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patronhttps://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standingsOn Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 10:18 bruce <darkoverlordofdata@gmail.com> wrote:No, they are fine with Linux . It's more about not letting them down. Family comes firstOn Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 6:45 AM Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:Bruce,On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 9:34 AM bruce <darkoverlordofdata@gmail.com> wrote:I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But if you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low. Nothing I say about linux gui affects windows.Assumption is the true enemy of understanding. :) Don't ask me where I got that quote from, I don't remember. You can either use GNUstep's own GUI or WinUXTheme (which uses native widgets) on Windows. The theme uses WinUXTheme.dll on Windows to interface with the native theming framework.You may think I'm overly paranoid about it. I don't work there anymore, and I don't use windows anymore, but friends and family still work there, so microsoft *is* family. I have to look them in the eye here in a few days.And they would have a problem with you exploring other things within your chosen profession? Windows does not comprise the entire computing ecosystem. It may be so on the common user's desktop, but not in the industry as a whole. Linux rules the server space in spite of what Microsoft might want you to believe.Speaking of which, tomorrow is Yule. After the new year I'll make a clean repro and file a bug in github.Sweet, I am looking forward to that. Also... just so you know, myself and Riccardo tried using XFCE with GNUstep and found a couple of interesting issues, but were not able to reproduce the artifacts you saw. Sometime between now and the end of the year I am going to give helloSystem a shot and see if I can make any sense of what you saw on there and if so, maybe we can address some of the issues you're experiencing.Yours, GCOn Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:Bruce,On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce <darkoverlordofdata@gmail.com> wrote:Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at pictures of gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and modern, and native.
My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd.
This is, unfortunately, true. GNUstep is using native widgets on Windows, so it is very likely to look better on that platform. I, personally, don't mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation to my left, so maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion.Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter - ask any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But for other users, it is often a non-starter.
My experience has been:
Wow this is cool
Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches
WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
Wow this looks old
Wow this is hard to use
WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in.
Install something else
But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc is awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. Fortunately, the freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That complicates targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But computer users see these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say it’s not my app, it’s the way it presents on your os. So they use another app. So much for platform agnostic. So much for marketability.
GNUstep is platform agnostic from the sense that it is flexible enough to be made to blend in should the developer wish to make that happen. The community can't take all of the responsibility for making YOUR app fit in everywhere. Also, it is difficult when we are only a few people working on a large project such as this. The point is... help us, I know you have told me privately why you feel as though you can't contribute directly, but writing bug reports or even feature requests on github is something you CAN do.You can help us get there by simply reporting any issues you're seeing in the places I have asked you to do so.GCOn Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:00 PM Riccardo Mottola <riccardo.mottola@libero.it> wrote:Hi,
bruce wrote:
> I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo. I
> couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under
> certain circumstances.
Building libobjc2 can be from easy, "just works" to a nightmare,
depending on a platform.
Best, of course, is if it comes ready for your OS.
> Hm, I'll give that a try,.
> But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it
> without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support nightmare.
GCC almost always "just works" if the operating system provides it. If
you don't need Obj-C2 features for your app, it is usually a very easy
path and that's why I love it. Except FreeBSD, where you mention
working. THhere the situation is complicated, because GCC provided has
its obj-c runtime removed, supposing you to use libobjc2, which won't
work. SO I abandoned that path, but compiled libobjc2 from sources.
Riccardo
--Bruce Davidson--Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patronhttps://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
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GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
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