Re: Tremolo

[Richard Shann]

On Thu, 2020-01-23 at 10:16 -0500, Peter French wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Working from the comments below I still cannot find the 'two note 
> tremolo' in the command window.
> 
> I might be having a dense day or you might be looking at a different 
> version of the software.
> 
> I can only find 'tremolo', tremolo up', 'tremolo down'.

You're right, I just checked and Denemo 2.2 does not have the two-note
tremolo command. Easiest would be to download

http://www.denemo.org/~jjbenham/mxe/denemo.zip

which has a nasty windows-only bug in deleting a measure in all staffs
fixed. This is a "no-install" version of Denemo - you start it by
executing the top level .bat file.

Otherwise you could install the script into your own version, copy and
paste the script between the scissor lines into the View->Scheme
window:

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><


;;;TwoNoteTremolo
;;;repeats the selection the given number of times
(if TwoNoteTremolo::params
    (d-InfoDialog (_ "This Denemo Directive is part of a set of four creating a 
\"Two note (or chord) tremolo\". Be sure to delete them all if you delete one 
of them."))
    (if (d-IsInSelection)
        (let ((tag "TremoloRepeat")(duration #f)(num_repeats (d-GetUserInput (_ 
"Tremolo Repeat") (_ "Give number of times the two notes/chords should be 
sounded 2,4... \n(must total up to proper note duration)") "8")))
            (define (at-start) ;;;enter with d-IsInSelection
                (define ret #f)
                (if (not (d-MoveCursorLeft))
                    (set! ret #t)
                    (begin
                        (set! ret (not (d-IsInSelection)))
                        (d-MoveCursorRight)))
                ret)
            (MoveToEndOfSelection)
            (set! duration (d-GetDurationInTicks))
            (if (and num_repeats (d-MoveCursorLeft) (at-start) (= duration 
(d-GetDurationInTicks))) ;;;precisely two objects selected of same duration
                (let ()
                    (set! num_repeats (string->number num_repeats))
                    (d-Copy)
                    (d-Directive-standalone tag)
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-minpixels tag 40)
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-postfix tag (string-append 
"\\repeat tremolo " (number->string num_repeats) "{ "))
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-display tag (string-append "% " 
(number->string num_repeats)))                   
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-graphic tag (string-append 
"\nR{\nDenemo\n36"))
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-gy tag 10)
                    (d-MoveCursorRight)
                    (d-MoveCursorRight)
                    (d-MoveCursorRight)
                    (d-Directive-standalone tag)
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-minpixels tag 60)
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-postfix tag "} %{ ")
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-graphic tag "\n}%{\nDenemo\n36")
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-gy tag 10)
                    (d-MoveCursorRight)
                    (let loop ((count num_repeats))
                        (d-Paste)
                        (if (> count 2)
                            (loop (1- count))))
                    (d-Directive-standalone tag)
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-minpixels tag 40)       
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-postfix tag " %} ")
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-graphic tag "\n%}\nDenemo\n36")
                    (d-DirectivePut-standalone-gy tag 10)
                    (d-MoveCursorRight)
                    (d-RefreshDisplay)
                    (d-SetSaved #f))
                (begin    
                    (d-WarningDialog (_ "The selection must comprise two 
notes/chords which will sound alternately as a tremolo. The display will show 
and sound out repetitions, while LilyPond will typeset them using the tremolo 
notation.")))))
        (d-WarningDialog (_ "Cursor not in selection"))))

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><

You can the either execute it directly from there, or create a palette
button that will execute it for you (or, indeed install it as a command
in the Notes menu).

> I might add that so far I have not even looked at the Lillypond code
> for 
> any of this.
> 
> I am strictly using the GUI for what I have achieved so far.
> 
> My use of Denemo is currently not sufficient to warrant the time on
> a 
> learning curve for a new language,
>  especially when there is a perfectly 
> good GUI to use.
> 
> I am not averse to learning Lillypond, it is just something I have
> not 
> had the time or commitment to do so far.
> 
> I tried the command center and added the tremolo command button to
> the 
> general menu.
> 
> Selecting the two notes I want to use, leaving the cursor between
> them 
> and then using the tremolo button.

well the cursor is never "between" adjacent notes.
> 
> I get the same two notes on the typeset score with two or three
> tails 
> through the second one.

so the second one is where the cursor was - that command ignores the
selection and puts a tremolo on a single note.

>  (see Current result attachment)
> 
> I have added two examples of what I want to achieve. (see Ex_1, Ex_2 
> attachments)


so ex 1 you get by putting two semiquavers in and using the two-note
tremolo command with the value 6 (which puts six pairs of semiquavers
(1/16th notes) which have a duration of a dotted minim (dotted half-
note), which is what you want (see attached tremolo6).

and ex 2 you get with selecting two demisemiquavers (1/32th notes) and
giving 16 as the number of pairs you want.

> 
> Sorry for the confusion on the question of voices. Overloading of
> the 
> term voice I think.
> 
> I have attached a picture of the idea I am looking to create.  ( 
> Singer_2 attachment)
> 
> This is a snippet from a religious song called 'My Father watches
> over me'.
> 
> It does demonstrate what I want to achieve, principle singer holding
> a 
> note while a second singer sings the echoing text.
> 
> This second singer only has a few words occasionally when the first
> one 
> is holding a note.

Well, I expect someone else might be more knowledgeable than me on that
but it looks like you just need another verse in which you select and
skip the notes where the voice is silent and then type in the bit where
it comes in, then select and skip the next section etc. Oh, and you
have the second singer playing in a different (musical) voice, so you
need to add a voice to the staff and attach the second line of lyrics
as a verse in that voice. See example(*). I'm not sure how you add the
line in the first voice - perhaps someone else can say, or I can look
up the LilyPond docs on that (fortunately you don't have to learn the
language to be able to patch bits of LilyPond syntax from the examples
given in the LilyPond manual, but it helps a lot to have some idea what
the syntax is like).

HTH

Richard

(*) in creating this example I think I found a bug - when trying to
select and skip it seemed to remove the selection and ask for the
number of syllables instead - perhaps that happens if it is not the
primary voice - needs a bug report...



> 
> Thanks for your assistance to date
> 
> Regards
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> On 1/23/2020 7:14 AM, Richard Shann wrote:
> > On Thu, 2020-01-23 at 09:55 +0000, Joe Wilkinson wrote:
> > > Hi Richard,
> > > I looked at Tremolo as I have used it with Mandolin music. I
> > > thought
> > > it might be possible to
> > >   drag the tremolo symbol to where Peter wanted it.
> > 
> > I think the command
> > 
> > Command: Two Note (or Chord) Tremolo
> > Takes the selected two notes or chords and repeats them to make up
> > the duration of a longer note. This will then be typeset using the
> > tremolo notation (beaming placed between notes), while the Denemo
> > Display will show and sound the repetitions.
> > Location: Object Menu ▶ Notes/Rests
> > Internal Name: TwoNoteTremolo
> > 
> > already does place the tremolo mark where Peter described. I've
> > just
> > had a try and it does seem to work:
> > 
> > Insert two semiquavers (1/16th) notes.
> > Select them leaving the cursor inside the selection.
> > Invoke the command and give 8 as the number of times to sound the
> > notes
> > The result is that Denemo fills bar in the display with a further
> > 14
> > semiquavers so that the playback sound is right and the typeset
> > shows
> > two semibreves (whole notes) with double beam between as Peter
> > described.
> > 
> > >   Have you changed the Drag item (in the Typeset Window) command
> > > to
> > > make it more user friendly. I found it cumbersome (not using
> > > split
> > > screen I had to close the edit window to avoid getting confused)
> > > and
> > > couldn't get it to work!
> > 
> > The double beam created by the above command is not something that
> > could be dragged in the Print View - dragging is only possible for
> > objects that appear in the Denemo Display as Denemo Directives -
> > either
> > standalone or attached to a note/chord.
> > 
> > > 2. edit the tremolo object
> > 
> > Are you thinking of a tremolo marking on a single note here? I see
> > that
> > it does not behave properly when you try to move it :(, it has its
> > own
> > edit procedure that doesn't include moving the position of the
> > symbol -
> > you would have to delve into the LilyPond syntax to try and do
> > that, my
> > guess is that it would be quite arcane.
> > 
> > >   in the edit window. On one occasion I got into the Advanced
> > > setting
> > > and tried to make it negative
> > 
> > ??? I think you may mean that you added a hyphen to the LilyPond
> > syntax
> > being attached, though I don't see any effect...
> > 
> > 
> > > (and the marks appeared below the staff). The rest of the time
> > > pressing the Advanced button replaced the line of buttons with a
> > > single one about editing. It came back if I picked the green
> > > tremolo
> > > word, but was not obvious.
> > 
> > ??? not sure if you are in the Object Editor when you pressed
> > Advanced,
> > or what the "line of buttons" is, or where a green tremolo word
> > appears...??? What was it that you were trying to do?
> > 
> > Richard
> > 
> > > just thought you ought to know
> > > Joe
> > > On 23/01/2020 09:08, Richard Shann wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 2020-01-22 at 17:37 -0500, Peter French wrote:
> > > > > Hi
> > > > > 
> > > > > I am using Denemo 2.2.0 on a Windows 7 pro box.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I need to note what I would call al Tremolo for Piano.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Usually I see this as two semi-breve notes on the staff with
> > > > > three
> > > > > lines
> > > > > between them. Not beaming and not joining to either note.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Quite often seen as written for a left hand octave spread and
> > > > > rolled
> > > > > quickly between the thumb and little finger.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I can find no reference to this type of notation within the
> > > > > manual
> > > > > whatever.
> > > > 
> > > > The manual doesn't have the detailed information about all the
> > > > commands
> > > > that are present, unfortunately. It *does* however describe the
> > > > Command
> > > > Center which is the place where you can answer this question.
> > > > If
> > > > you
> > > > type Tremolo into the Command Center search box you will find
> > > > several
> > > > commands to do with the various sorts of tremolo notation. (Use
> > > > the
> > > > ->
> > > > button to search onward for further commands after you have the
> > > > first
> > > > one).
> > > > > your assistance will be appreciated as I cannot finish the
> > > > > score
> > > > > I
> > > > > am
> > > > > working on without.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Is there a way to line up a verse with the correct notes
> > > > > after
> > > > > playing a
> > > > > piano introduction?
> > > > 
> > > > Yes. I think what you need to do is select the introduction
> > > > (the
> > > > notes
> > > > show with a yellow background) and then choose the command
> > > > Lyrics->Skip Lyrics in Selection
> > > > - this will insert the needed "skips".
> > > > > For instance if I have a three bar introduction before the
> > > > > vocal
> > > > > starts,
> > > > > can I do this without forcing the alignment with the use of
> > > > > spaces
> > > > > and
> > > > > hyphens?
> > > > 
> > > > The above command uses neater LilyPond syntax to do the
> > > > skipping
> > > > e.g.
> > > > 
> > > > \repeat unfold 4 \skip 1
> > > > 
> > > > is the LilyPond syntax it inserts into the lyrics to skip four
> > > > syllables.
> > > > 
> > > > > Also how do I write for a second voice in the same verse, for
> > > > > instance echoing phrases from the first voice in parts of the
> > > > > work?
> > > > 
> > > > I'm not at all sure I understand this question - are you
> > > > talking
> > > > about
> > > > lyrics here or notes (the second case might be keyboard
> > > > polyphony -
> > > > using several voices on one staff)?
> > > > 
> > > > > Last question for the moment, I have a trill which I want to
> > > > > extend
> > > > > for
> > > > > a second note, like a crotchet and quaver combination not
> > > > > tied.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Using the trill on the menu's that I have found it only
> > > > > covers
> > > > > the
> > > > > first
> > > > > note, is there a way to extend it over the two notes?
> > > > 
> > > > yes, again the Command Center search puts you on the Start
> > > > Trill
> > > > and
> > > > Stop Trill commands after the three other trill commands.
> > > > 
> > > > Command: Start Trill
> > > > Starts a spanning trill from the note at the cursor.
> > > > Location: Object Menu ▶ Directives ▶ Markings ▶ Spanning
> > > > Internal Name: StartTrillSpan
> > > > 
> > > > > I did previously write to Richard Shann and though he
> > > > > answered me
> > > > > he
> > > > > advised using the forum
> > > > 
> > > > I think you may have misunderstood - I will have meant to point
> > > > you
> > > > to
> > > > this mailing list, which thankfully you have found - if you
> > > > subscribe
> > > > to the list (see Community page on denemo.org) you will be able
> > > > to
> > > > send
> > > > emails without them being delayed for moderation and see any
> > > > other
> > > > questions that people may ask.
> > > > 
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > > 
> > > > Richard Shann
> > > > 
> > > >

tremolo6.denemo
Description: XML document

tremolo16.denemo
Description: XML document

singer.denemo
Description: XML document