Re: [lp-ca-on] Netfile Application Thoughts

[Greg Knittl]

Hi Bob,

Among other things, the CRA is putting us in a dilemma since we only get to
see the NDA after applying, i.e. after deciding on our structure. It's 
not clear what liabilities
the NDA would impose on SOBAC or us as individuals if information leeks 
out. You could be
taking on liability for "employees" you don't really control. Likewise, 
if a bunch of us apply
as proprietorships and there is a leak, it's not clear if the CRA would 
hold us individually or collectively responsible.
It's not clear how the NDA will affect our ability to work on a paper 
filing program.

I'm thinking it would be fair to try to ask the CRA for a copy of the 
NDA up front.

As for where to direct Libre Planet Ontario energy, I see this as a 
non-zero sum game. My hope is that by investing some energy to move this 
forward, additional people will come on board to complete the project. 
It's early days, this could take years. But already from my selfish 
point of view, this collaboration has generated ideas for me to improve 
my paper filing tax program. It's an opportunity for Libre Planet 
Ontario to grow, especially to reach across Canada.

As for software modifications, the CRA probably needs to be able to hold 
people to the numbers they submit. If you use free software and modify 
it that's even more deliberate on your part than just pumping numbers 
into a closed source program. I.e. you are more on the hook for your 
submission - if the CRA can prove you modified the software. 
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/esrvc-srvce/tx/ndvdls/netfile-impotnet/crtfdsftwr/menu-eng.html#q1 
puts responsibilities on the user can only really fulfill with free 
software. These are fundamental, important, hard issues. It wouldn't 
surprise me, if there are some Charter of Rights issues (court cases) 
lurking here. There are easier issues to start with: the 20 return 
limit/computer doesn't make sense when the software is free and hardware 
is dirt cheap. I wonder if the CRA tests for virtual machines... We 
should also stick to our guns on the harder issues and keep chipping 
away at them.

Greg
p.s. The CRA responded to me with a copy of the 2015 NetFile Software 
Developers' Certification Guide. They copied the list. I've been 
assuming it went out to the list and everyone has seen it


On 16-07-07 04:20 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
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> I spoke with Paul Young of Canadian Accounting Services, which does
> tax preparation. Paul thinks that if we were to provide an online web
> service for filing, we'd have to register as Netfile filing agents as
> well as developers.
>
> Either way, any software we produce would have to be certified by the
> CRA, which needs some assurances that the product that gets used to
> file taxes is the same product that was certified. That seems to be at
> odds with Freedoms 2 and 3, the freedom to make modifications and the
> freedom to distribute those modifications.
>
> I suspect our energies are better directed towards lobbying the
> government to adopt more Free Software for its own use (office
> administration, accounting, &c.)
>
> About incorporation: SOBAC Microcomputer Services is incorporated as
> "9024816 Canada Incorporated".  I would be willing to file the
> application, but then there's the issue of who actually does the work.
>   What other contractual obligations will the CRA application impose?
> Would you all need to become employees? Bad news, SOBAC doesn't pay well.
>
> - --Bob.
>
>
> On 2016-07-07 03:26 PM, Greg Knittl wrote:
> > The CRA declined the unincorporated association. I doubt Libre
> > Planet Ontario can manage incorporation by the 15th. We have to
> > apply individually, likely as sole proprietors unless you are
> > incorporated. We can change the product name later, it's not
> > important to get started. It might even be best for anyone that
> > wants to apply to pick their own name that's distinct from the
> > overall Libre Planet project name. I would probably call mine
> > something like Greg's Free/Libre Canadian Tax Software
> >
> > Filling out the initial application is fairly easy. Getting
> > accepted may be an issue. Getting certified looks like a major
> > effort, with some philosophical issues to iron out with the CRA
> > such as the 20 return limit.
> >
> > I am not a lawyer but I think the initial application doesn't bind
> > one to a whole lot. If we get accepted, then the Non-Disclosure
> > Agreement would be a more binding step and we would each have the
> > option of declining the NDS and stopping there. If the NDS affects
> > one's ability to work on the base, uncertified software that might
> > be a reason to decline the NDS. On the other hand the CRA probably
> > has a lot of information that would speed up work on the
> > uncertified base software such as lists of field names and how they
> > are formatted. The test cases would be helpful even if we don't get
> > certified.
> >
> > What do you think? Is anyone else considering applying? I think it
> > would be good for multiple people to apply in case we hit issues
> > with the NDS that knock out some of the initial applicants.
> >
> > Greg
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