Re: [GNUnet-developers] Economic System

[Christian Grothoff]

Anonymous routing is described at

http://gnunet.org/download/aff.pdf

Christian

On Friday 19 June 2009 10:14:13 am leo stone wrote:
> Thank you, that made things more clear, is there a link to the routing
> paper?
> regards leo
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Christian Grothoff
>
> <address@hidden>wrote:
> > On Friday 19 June 2009 09:11:30 am leo stone wrote:
> > > Hi Christian,
> > > thanx for the link. I've read it and except from a few other questions
> > > there is one I can't get my head around.
> > >
> > > Maybe you can explain this better to me.
> > >
> > > Let's call this the "I'd like to help but they don't let me 'cause they
> > > don't trust me" syndrome.
> > >
> > > I consider following situation:
> > >
> > > A new node is willing to participate and connects to the net where all
> > > nodes have already accumulated a lot of trust to each other.
> > >
> > > A->10000000
> > > B->10000000  D? <- 0 E (new)
> > > C->10000000
> > >
> > > If the algorithm in each node is : delegate to the node wich gives me
> > > potantially the best results, ergo choose
> > > the ones i trust most
> >
> > 1) Trust is not symmetric, so the node you trust most may not trust you
> >    at all; in fact, the protocol does not allow you to find out (with any
> >    reasonable amount of precision) how much anyone else trusts you.
> >
> > 2) Delegation to nodes that give you potentially the best results is a
> > routing
> >    decision (different paper); that routing decision does not even
> > consider trust (and while it does consider recent success rates as one of
> > the factors, it also considers available bandwidth and each connected
> > node is assigned a certain minimum share, so E would at least get some
> > (possibly small) fraction of the queries, giving E the chance to prove
> > itself.
> >
> > > how will the new node ever get a chance to serve any request, and so be
> > > able to build up trust???
> > > and if it's actually possible how long will it take node E to become
> > > competitive? Will node E not give up before that?
> >
> > E does not have to be "competitive" unless A/B/C are actually exhausting
> > available resources at D at the same time.
> >
> > > If i imagine what happens if such a system evolves over time it
> > > develops disjoint "bubbles of trusting nodes", which will reflect
> > > pretty much the time when the have joined the network and so had the
> > > same trust level and so were willing to delegate to each other.
> >
> > Unlikely.  What we do see is that some nodes end up having very high
> > trust values because they never use trust that they have earned (servers
> > that are running, contributing but never issuing any requests on their
> > own).  But those
> > high trust values don't matter since they are never spent.  It's like
> > Bill Gates theoretically being able to buy up all of the bread in the
> > world causing
> > everyone else to starve; but since he doesn't actually spent (a
> > significant amount of) his money, it doesn't matter in practice.
> >
> > > This is actually what happens in real life as well, the longer a
> > > trusting circle exists the harder it becomes to get in except they have
> > > some
> >
> > counter
> >
> > > mechanism. But usually it is intended to keep a trusting circle small.
> >
> > Trust is not used to determine who peers connect to, and since trust is
> > also
> > not used to determine who gets requests (since the relevant trust
> > direction is
> > not known), those circles don't actually form.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Christian
> >
> > > Please explain to we what I didn't get right. tx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:08 AM, Christian Grothoff
> > >
> > > <address@hidden>wrote:
> > > > Hi Leo!
> > > >
> > > > Well, the primary resource for the economic system is the paper on
> > > > the subject, which you can find at
> > > >
> > > > http://gnunet.org/download/ebe.pdf
> > > >
> > > > (much more readable then trying to get it out of the code).  Also, in
> > > > contrast
> > > > to the ECRS paper, this paper is actually up-to-date with what the
> > > > code is doing.
> > > >
> > > > Now, you say you "wonder if this part of gnunet was ever questioned"
> > > > -- that's
> > > > a bit harder to answer; obviously quite a few people have thought
> > > > about it and
> > > > asked questions, and there are quite a few good open questions in
> > > > this context.  However, I am not aware of a well-reasoned suggestion
> > > > for improvement at this point.  The two major research questions that
> > > > stand out for me are:
> > > >
> > > > 1) How can we give the user feedback to make him *feel* that by
> > > > earning trust
> > > > he is getting better service? While this may seem like a UI issue,
> > > > related issues such as gathering the speed-up data (how much speed-up
> >
> > was
> >
> > > > obtained) and making it significant (maybe the benefit is not large
> > > > enough to begin with?) without compromising the overall security
> > > > properties would also be addressed to get the main issue resolved.
> > > >
> > > > 2) How should we set prices?  The paper gives some basic constraints
> > > > on how peers should set prices, but it doesn't give anything near a
> > > > closed-form answer for price-formation.  The code currently uses
> > > > heuristics which lack proper justification for why they are good or
> >
> > even
> >
> > > > optimal.  Having a better
> > > > pricing mechanism (how much a peer offers for content, when, how
> > > > often, etc.)
> > > > would likely help with question (1) by presumably making the speed-up
> > > > more dramatic.  Evaluation methods I'd accept here range from
> > > > complete mathematical
> > > > models to (good) simulations.
> > > >
> > > > Both of these questions have been raised many times over the years by
> > > > myself
> > > > and others.  I think skilled researcher with enough time and energy
> >
> > could
> >
> > > > most
> > > > likely find a reasonable answer for (2); gathering speed-up data
> >
> > without
> >
> > > > leaking information that might harm anonymity and/or some of the
> >
> > economic
> >
> > > > principles sounds like a really hard problem (on the economic side,
> > > > sharing speed-up information is like giving a buyer information on
> > > > the profit-margin
> > > > of a store without giving the buyer a reason (and data) for
> > > > negotiating harder
> > > > for the next purchase...).  So I'm much less optimistic on finding a
> > > > solution
> > > > on (1) short of improving (2) to the point that the speed up is
> > > > "obvious".
> > > >
> > > > As far as GNUnet growing, I am not sure this is the primary issue;
> > > > ease-of-use
> > > > (including initial installation) and speed and scalability of the
> > > > basic routing algorithm (which is improving slowly over time, but
> > > > still not quite where I'd like it to be) are likely more relevant to
> > > > overall growth. Naturally, having good answers to the above two
> > > > questions would also help.
> > > >
> > > > Christian
> > > >
> > > > On Thursday 18 June 2009 01:03:48 pm leo stone wrote:
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > since there are pretty big changes ahead for 0.9 maybe it's just
> > > > > the
> > > >
> > > > right
> > > >
> > > > > moment to raise a few
> > > > > questions regarding the economic system. since i hadn't a look at
> > > > > the
> > > >
> > > > code
> > > >
> > > > > i know nothing
> > > > > about it, except a blurry idea that a node prefers to serve nodes
> > > > > it
> > > >
> > > > trusts
> > > >
> > > > > most. how this trust builds up and on what it is based is unclear
> > > > > to me. but before i start formulating any thoughts i'd like to
> >
> > understand
> >
> > > > > the current implementation.
> > > > > are the any other sources except the code to grasp all the details?
> > > > >
> > > > > what i wonder is, if this part of gnunet was ever questioned?
> > > > >
> > > > > i really feel that right there could be the main cause that gnunet
> > > > > didn't grow as all the people would like to see
> > > > > it growing. but before i can start any argument i should first know
> > > > > what
> > > >
> > > > i
> > > >
> > > > > am talking about so please
> > > > > point me to any available resource, explain it to me or tell me if
> >
> > the
> >
> > > > only
> > > >
> > > > > source is the code.
> > > > >
> > > > > thx