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Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p
From: |
W Dan Meyer |
Subject: |
Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p |
Date: |
Fri, 11 Jun 2010 22:23:39 +0100 |
User-agent: |
Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) |
Lennart Borgman <address@hidden> writes:
>>
>> One possibility is that editors intended specifically for bidi, such as
>> native-language Hebrew or Arabic apps, have a convention that vim,
>> gedit, etc have not taken up. So, could anyone who has experience with
>> such apps speak up?
>
>
> Looking around on the internet (not being a bidi reader) it seems to
> me that it is mostly a programming mistake to let the arrow keys
> change direction. (Somehow maybe also from a beginners perspective the
> right arrow might mean "go forward".) However for someone editing
> texts in some way this is awkward IMO. Here are some links:
>
> -
> http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~akihiko/java/jdk1.2beta3/docs/guide/2d/spec/j2d-fonts.fm1.html
> (look for "moving the caret").
>
> - http://wiki.sibawayhi.org/keyboard - READING IS NOT CURSORING!
>
> - http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/8037 (just a short complaints
> about cursor changing their ways)
>
> - http://www.qsm.co.il/Hebrew/logicUI22.htm - "The logical approach is
> sometimes preferred by implementors, mostly because its implementation
> is easier. This is not a recommended solution."
Nice reesearch.
I agree with those findings.
For me it looks all right to have those forward-backward bindings. For
few reasons:
- C-{f,b} is used mostly by experienced Emacs users, if they don't like
they will most likely change it (I am sure you can contradict it, I
have never learnt to use them)
- Obviously it was said before, forward-backward means forward-backward
not left-right.
- We have a choice, we can use C-{f,b} to preserve the logical
direction, plus we add the functonality to rebind it if is
needed. Question if that should be mode, global state and a set of
functions
- if it will not work as expected (I think there must be an agreement
how the programs behave in the right-left direction over the world),
we will get kind e-mails saying so (I hope kind ;) )
- everything dependes on a person, if somebody is not a native
speaker/writer in such language and writes a letter probably it will be
cumbersome to use reversed bindings, it is easier to read the text
read-left than swapping keys (muscle memory, and the fact one is forced
to read, it cannot be done in a different way).
So from my point of view maybe good idea is to:
- Let the user swap arrows too (or the underlaying implementation, well it
can be done by binding just different symbol),
- Find a person which uses bidi, not in Emacs but generally and ask if
he/she would prefered this behaviour.
- Switching even OpenOffice to the right-left mode and check the default
Just mine 2 cents.
Wojciech
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, (continued)
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Eli Zaretskii, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Lennart Borgman, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Eli Zaretskii, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Lennart Borgman, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Eli Zaretskii, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Lennart Borgman, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Lennart Borgman, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, David Kastrup, 2010/06/13
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Chong Yidong, 2010/06/11
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Lennart Borgman, 2010/06/11
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p,
W Dan Meyer <=
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Miles Bader, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Eli Zaretskii, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Lennart Borgman, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Eli Zaretskii, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, James Cloos, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Eli Zaretskii, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, James Cloos, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Eli Zaretskii, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, James Cloos, 2010/06/12
- Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p, Stefan Monnier, 2010/06/12