Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10

[Hans Zwakenberg]

my 2 Euro-cents:  before taking any decision about what direction to take, 
let's try and iron out open issues first.  Just a cursory look over Eiffel Test 
results show that there is enough to do for everybody around here.
I know it's sexier to create new code, but I strongly feel that we'd be better 
off with squatting bugs and writing documentation first...

cheers
Hans


> liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org hat am 18.02.2022 15:39 geschrieben:
> 
>  
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9 (Peter Lubke)
>    2. Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9 (Eric Bezault)
>    3. Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9 (Patrick CLOAREC)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 02:37:56 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Peter Lubke <azador1606@yahoo.com>
> To: "liberty-eiffel@gnu.org" <liberty-eiffel@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9
> Message-ID: <1806141660.2273890.1645151876403@mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
>  Hello all.
> Now, I'm going to ask a serious question.Have you thought about all the 
> ramifications and effects of "being just like ISE"?
> "Interoperability" was an original (1990's) Eiffel principle/goal/dream. But 
> not a 21st century position at all - at least not from the dominant 
> commercial vendor. No, no, no - very very far from it. And while that makes 
> sense from a business perspective, competition is usually a good thing.
> In full disclosure, the reason I stopped using Gobo Eiffel was that it began 
> to be "just like ISE". It does not compete, it just provides unpaid support. 
> While I think Eric has always done a great job, I just don't agree with the 
> direction of the last many several years, and taking Liberty Eiffel in the 
> same direction - well, you can see where I'm going here.
> So Liberty Eiffel has been my go to Eiffel compiler in recent years. Not that 
> I use it a lot. Viva la difference! I'm mostly on linux, so gnu is my main 
> compiler set.
> The Eiffel community shrunk drastically when "standard" Eiffel was created. 
> Sometimes, when you get lost the best thing to do is go back to the last 
> place where you knew where you were (if you can).
> So I put it to you that if you want to pursue "interoperability", you should 
> do it with something like Rust, Scala or [sacrilege] C++23. 
> Finding a common direction to row in is important for the Liberty Eiffel 
> group if it wants to be active. It's just a small fish in a small pond. Do 
> you want to escape to the ocean? or join a larger fish in another small pond? 
> or play with sharks? or just safely build the pond a little larger? It's also 
> important to have a unique direction.
> However, that's just my 20 cents worth (adjusted for inflation).
> 
> 
>     On Friday, 18 February 2022, 03:03:40 am AEST, 
> liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org <liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org> wrote:  
>  
>  Send Liberty-eiffel mailing list submissions to
>     liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/liberty-eiffel
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     liberty-eiffel-owner@gnu.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Liberty-eiffel digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8 (Hans Zwakenberg)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 18:26:38 +0100 (CET)
> From: Hans Zwakenberg <hz@ocean-consulting.de>
> To: liberty-eiffel@gnu.org, liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8
> Message-ID: <1629935351.23456.1645032398447@ox.hosteurope.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Welcome Patrick, soyez bienvenue !
> 
> Very cool to see new faces around here :)
> 
> Cordialement
> Hans
> 
> 
> > liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org hat am 16.02.2022 18:00 geschrieben:
> > 
> >  
> > Send Liberty-eiffel mailing list submissions to
> >     liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> > 
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >     https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/liberty-eiffel
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >     liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org
> > 
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >     liberty-eiffel-owner@gnu.org
> > 
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Liberty-eiffel digest..."
> > 
> > 
> > Today's Topics:
> > 
> >    1. one more on board (Patrick CLOAREC)
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 07:46:03 +0100
> > From: Patrick CLOAREC <patrick.cloarec@laposte.net>
> > To: liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> > Subject: one more on board
> > Message-ID: <ba60695d-2372-6a18-505a-9d070b78e9c5@laposte.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I'm a software engineer. I closely followed the development of 
> > Smalleiffel at the end of the 90's but never contributed to it.
> > 
> > Now, I'd like to be involved in LibertyEiffel, as well as Gobo.
> > 
> > I have a strong professional background in C (not by choice, actually), 
> > I have used many languages, mainly Eiffel, Erlang, C, C++, Java and 
> > assemblers, for 30 years, but I definitely consider Eiffel as the best 
> > designed language by far.
> > 
> > I have rediscovered Liberty Eiffel last week, and I'm really happy to 
> > see it as an active project again.
> > 
> > I think that the priority is the one Eric Bezault has pointed out : 
> > interoperability between ISE, Gobo and Liberty.
> > 
> > I'd be really glad to contribute to Gobo's and Liberty Eiffel's next 
> > developments !
> > 
> > Patrick CLOAREC
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Liberty-eiffel mailing list
> > Liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/liberty-eiffel
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > End of Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8
> > *********************************************
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Liberty-eiffel mailing list
> Liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/liberty-eiffel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9
> *********************************************
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 08:39:25 +0100
> From: Eric Bezault <ericb@gobosoft.com>
> To: "liberty-eiffel@gnu.org" <liberty-eiffel@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9
> Message-ID: <82734150-e1fa-95cc-ebd8-38c5c3c777c0@gobosoft.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> On 18/02/2022 3:37, Peter Lubke wrote:
> > In full disclosure, the reason I stopped using Gobo Eiffel was that it 
> > began to be "just like ISE". It does not compete, it just provides 
> > unpaid support.
> 
> Reducing Gobo Eiffel just an unpaid version of ISE is unfair.
> Supporting the same dialect of the language does not mean that
> Gobo Eiffel is like ISE. One of the main differences is that
> it uses completely different compilation techniques, which allow
> more optimizations. Even when supporting the same dialect,
> there is room for differences, for unique functionalities, for
> innovations
> 
> -- 
> Eric Bezault
> mailto:ericb@gobosoft.com
> http://www.gobosoft.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:09:32 +0100
> From: Patrick CLOAREC <patrick.cloarec@laposte.net>
> To: liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9
> Message-ID: <0fab0415-8fda-2acf-f017-badf671fd9a4@laposte.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Hello Peter,
> 
> Le 18/02/2022 à 03:37, Peter Lubke a écrit :
> > Hello all.
> >
> > Now, I'm going to ask a serious question.
> > Have you thought about all the ramifications and effects of "being 
> > just like ISE"?
> 
> I don't intend to be just like ISE. Actually, by "interoperability" I 
> mean at least "share the same language definition", even with addition. 
> A compiler with language extension is not the same at all than a 
> compiler for a different language.
> 
> I would not try to follow ISE in all its tools, to ensure a full project 
> file interoperability. If possible, why not, but that's a different job. 
> I don't focus on running directly ace or ECF, or any other development tool.
> 
> >
> > "Interoperability" was an original (1990's) Eiffel principle/goal/dream.
> > But not a 21st century position at all - at least not from the 
> > dominant commercial vendor. No, no, no - very very far from it. And 
> > while that makes sense from a business perspective, competition is 
> > usually a good thing.
> 
> I worked of years on embedded SW, and one of our first concern was the C 
> compiler deviations form standard. Actually, there exists standard (such 
> as MISRA) that defines tons of rules to ensure portability between 
> compilers and libraries. One of the first rule is : "define and use only 
> a subset of the C standard, so you will avoid incompatibility between 
> compilers that comply with the C standard". Wow.. That is something I 
> would like to avoid with Eiffel
> 
> Concerning Project files and tools, all IDE have an option "import 
> project from xxx IDE". that is a way to deal with environment compatibility
> > In full disclosure, the reason I stopped using Gobo Eiffel was that it 
> > began to be "just like ISE". It does not compete, it just provides 
> > unpaid support. While I think Eric has always done a great job, I just 
> > don't agree with the direction of the last many several years, and 
> > taking Liberty Eiffel in the same direction - well, you can see where 
> > I'm going here.
> 
> I could not blame Eric and gobosoft contributors for  not having built 
> something better than ISE. Gobo is different from ISE while being 
> compatible, that's a very good thing. I don't like the idea of "all 
> development environments do the same things in the same way", but I 
> don't like the idea of "2 compilers = 2 languages".
> 
> >
> > So Liberty Eiffel has been my go to Eiffel compiler in recent years. 
> > Not that I use it a lot. Viva la difference! I'm mostly on linux, so 
> > gnu is my main compiler set.
> >
> > The Eiffel community shrunk drastically when "standard" Eiffel was 
> > created.
> True, but, in my opinion, the SmartEiffel community shrunk drastically 
> with the concept of "True Eiffel", which sounded (at least to me) a bit 
> like "we are the true believers".
> >
> > Sometimes, when you get lost the best thing to do is go back to the 
> > last place where you knew where you were (if you can).
> >
> > So I put it to you that if you want to pursue "interoperability", you 
> > should do it with something like Rust, Scala or [sacrilege] C++23.
> please don't use rude words :-)
> >
> > Finding a common direction to row in is important for the Liberty 
> > Eiffel group if it wants to be active.
> I agree, and I'm totally open to discussion.
> > It's just a small fish in a small pond. Do you want to escape to the 
> > ocean? or join a larger fish in another small pond? or play with 
> > sharks? or just safely build the pond a little larger? It's also 
> > important to have a unique direction.
> 
> My point of view is :
> 
> What is the cost of having and keeping a compiler compatible (at 
> language level) with ISE ? or even just ECMA-compliant ? (I don't like 
> the ECMA document, by the way)
> 
> if that's a doable job, let's do it, so we will have a clear basis for 
> further developments, while keeping a language-level compatibility 
> within the three compilers. By "development", I mean optimization, new 
> tools or language extensions
> 
> >
> > However, that's just my 20 cents worth (adjusted for inflation).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Friday, 18 February 2022, 03:03:40 am AEST, 
> > liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org <liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Send Liberty-eiffel mailing list submissions to
> > liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/liberty-eiffel
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > liberty-eiffel-owner@gnu.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Liberty-eiffel digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8 (Hans Zwakenberg)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 18:26:38 +0100 (CET)
> > From: Hans Zwakenberg <hz@ocean-consulting.de>
> > To: liberty-eiffel@gnu.org, liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8
> > Message-ID: <1629935351.23456.1645032398447@ox.hosteurope.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Welcome Patrick, soyez bienvenue !
> >
> > Very cool to see new faces around here :)
> >
> > Cordialement
> > Hans
> >
> >
> > > liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org hat am 16.02.2022 18:00 geschrieben:
> > >
> > >
> > > Send Liberty-eiffel mailing list submissions to
> > > liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/liberty-eiffel
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > liberty-eiffel-owner@gnu.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of Liberty-eiffel digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > >    1. one more on board (Patrick CLOAREC)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 07:46:03 +0100
> > > From: Patrick CLOAREC <patrick.cloarec@laposte.net>
> > > To: liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> > > Subject: one more on board
> > > Message-ID: <ba60695d-2372-6a18-505a-9d070b78e9c5@laposte.net>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm a software engineer. I closely followed the development of
> > > Smalleiffel at the end of the 90's but never contributed to it.
> > >
> > > Now, I'd like to be involved in LibertyEiffel, as well as Gobo.
> > >
> > > I have a strong professional background in C (not by choice, actually),
> > > I have used many languages, mainly Eiffel, Erlang, C, C++, Java and
> > > assemblers, for 30 years, but I definitely consider Eiffel as the best
> > > designed language by far.
> > >
> > > I have rediscovered Liberty Eiffel last week, and I'm really happy to
> > > see it as an active project again.
> > >
> > > I think that the priority is the one Eric Bezault has pointed out :
> > > interoperability between ISE, Gobo and Liberty.
> > >
> > > I'd be really glad to contribute to Gobo's and Liberty Eiffel's next
> > > developments !
> > >
> > > Patrick CLOAREC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Liberty-eiffel mailing list
> > > Liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> > > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/liberty-eiffel
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > End of Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8
> > > *********************************************
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Liberty-eiffel mailing list
> > Liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/liberty-eiffel
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9
> > *********************************************
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> End of Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10
> **********************************************