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Re: [Fsuk-manchester] The free software movement's dilemma


From: Simon Ward
Subject: Re: [Fsuk-manchester] The free software movement's dilemma
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 10:41:13 +0000
User-agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14)

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 09:03:14AM +0000, Tim Dobson wrote:
> On 23/03/13 08:42, Michael Dorrington wrote:
> >On 22/03/13 21:41, Tim Dobson wrote:
> >>On 22/03/13 13:37, MJ Ray wrote:
> >>>Tim Dobson<address@hidden>
> >[...]
> >>The free software movement has code that powers millions of servers,
> >>that runs in space, that has connected millions of people, that has
> >>underlined millions of businesses... but we don't talk about it. Perhaps
> >>we could start doing? How?
> >
> >We do talk about it.  As an example, we had a talk about "Free software
> >advances around the world" by Bob Ham last year.  We talk about it at
> >events as it helps dispel the idea that it couldn't work.
> 
> Brutal I know, but, can I count the attendees on both hands?
> 
> >>Example 3: Coding as standard for schools.
> >>In the UK we've seen massive boosts in young people coding - there's a
> >>massive push to get young people not just to be passive consumers but to
> >>be creators. This is the proverbial, "everyone plays games, but only a
> >>few people know how to make them" or "everyone uses apps on their phone,
> >>but how can you personally make one?".
> >
> >Young people have been coding computers since they were available to
> >them.  Early home computers either booted into a programming environment
> >or it was accessible from the menu the computer booted into.  This
> >encouraged many people to code.  Some of the coding was used to give
> >users software freedom but some of it was used to enslave users, divide
> >them and make them helpless.
> >
> >>With the rPi and all that that
> >>brings, we have free software, for the first time ever, being pushed
> >>into the hands of school children. This is tremendous news - and a
> >>massive opportunity. How can we communicate better about this?
> >
> >The Raspberry Pi also requires non-Free Software to boot and has
> >non-free driver for its GFX (they've only freed the shim layer to it) so
> >it is not exactly a gleaming beacon of Free Software.  What we need to
> >continue to teach is the Free Software philosophy so these coders don't
> >go on to use any skills they learn to write non-Free Software or
> >Software as a Service (SaaS).
> >
> >>Find someway you're happy to watch this:
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wVn1TqUfZjc#!
> >
> >clive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVn1TqUfZjc#!
> >
> >>oops, it seems like I meant this link actually:
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKIu9yen5nc
> >
> >clive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVn1TqUfZjc#!
> >
> >>It's 2013. From that video, go back and look at how many people in that
> >>video, work for organisations that *aren't* businesses primarily based
> >>around free software infrastructure. I count, two, arguably soon, one?
> >>In 2013, to have a job, *how can you afford* for it *not* to be free
> >>software? how can we communicate that if you're looking for work in
> >>today's world, employers are crying out for experience with free
> >>software systems? I mean, really, seriously, ASP.net isn't a threat,
> >>it's a joke. How can we get that across to people?
> >
> >Those companies want coders to code their SaaS and non-Free Software.
> >These are basically recruiting videos for non-Free Software companies or
> >SaaS companies.  As they say in the 2nd video they can't get enough high
> >quality coders.  The message the Free Software Movement should be
> >focusing on is not "If you learn how to use Free Software then there are
> >lots of high paying jobs where you can code SaaS, you'll be enslaving
> >users but that's OK" but should be "Write software that respects the
> >users' freedom, Free Software, or don't write that software as it is
> >unjust.".
> 
> Those videos are indeed, full of content you will disagree with.
> 
> But you have to agree that they are persuasive right? Why is it persuasive?
> 
> If you were to approach promoting free software, from the same angle
> as those people approached "we need more engineers" where would you
> come to?
> 
> The message is to inspire people. It doesn't matter how.
> 
> >>Fwiw, here's how that code.org video above got the views:
> >>http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/13/how-code-orgs-learn-to-code-video-starring-zuck-and-gates-surpassed-12m-views-in-2-weeks/
> >>
> >>
> >>Basically, I think better things could be done, and the people who do
> >>those things, are the ones that will choose which way the future goes.
> >
> >Tim, I would like you to help out with MFS again, you made a great
> >contribution but there is still lots to do in effectively promoting the
> >Free Software philosophy.
> 
> I don't *want* to help out an organisation that has spent most of
> January, February, and apparently, March, mainly, it would appear,
> discussing whether, or whether-not, Debian is free software and
> should be promoted.

You forget that the dirty jobs still have to be done. Who actually likes
debating the nitty gritty details? I’m not so keen on it, despite what
you may see on the list that makes you think I am. You forget that the
thread started because someone *more* extreme, had it been allowed to
stand, could have turned away an entire class of free software users by
simply saying “no”. I didn’t like that, so I needed to find a middle
ground. Mediation is a horrible thing that involves compromises from
everyone involved. Every party gets something they don’t want. It’s a
whole bunch of negatives. I don’t know what we can do about that other
than just ignore it, bury our heads in the sand, pretend there isn’t an
issue.

You forget that a single long‐running debate on the mailing list is not
all that we do. It may seem like it at times, but you still wish to
devalue the rest of the activities by picking out that one thing. It’s
not even clear whether you’re actually trying to support MFS, or draw it
into another debate that people get fed up of.  What you have done is
just point out that we’re not doing quite as well as we should be (not
necessarily a bad thing), but without any actual constructive comment.
It feels like you’re not remotely interested in helping at all.

Simon
-- 
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that works.—John Gall

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