Re: The Swarm space (was RePast (another agent toolkit) released)

[SCHREIBER,DARREN MATTHEW]

As someone who invested a lot of time in learning Objective C & Swarm last
year, I thought I'd chime in.  I am very glad that the development team
has continued to keep the Objective C elements up to date while adding the
Java abilities in parallel.

While I am glad that more people will be enticed to use Swarm now that
they can get at it using Java (which obviously has a lot of cross
application), I know that this will somewhat obsolete my already mediocre
Swarm programming ability.  I have benefited tremendously from reading
other people's code and will be a bit disheartened as more and more Swarm
models are produced in a language I can't read yet.

Depending on where my own research takes me, I can imagine needing to
learn Java.  However, you can be assured that I will put this off as long
as I can.  And, since the new MacOS X will be using Objective C, perhaps
I'll just stay blissfully Java illiterate forever.

        Darren




On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, glen e. p. ropella wrote:

> At 01:52 PM 1/31/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >been avoiding it for the same reason.) I think the community needed a more 
> >traditional swarm like all java solution--I've been a little surprised 
> >that swarm hasn't been more anxious to provide it, though I can totally 
> >understand their choices given limited resources.
> 
> I realize you didn't intend to broadcast this, but felt I should
> pursue it anyway.  What evidence of anxiety haven't we shown about
> a pure-java version of Swarm that you would have expected to see?
> 
> What the hive has been doing is *both* maintaining the old interface
> (which is ObjC) and opening up access to new interfaces (Java and
> Scheme as well as R and HDF).  Backwards compatability and the
> pursuit of a stable API is *very* important.  Granted they could
> have forked the code and re-written the API in Java.  Or they could
> have re-written the whole thing, including the API.  But, that is
> near-sighted and counter productive.  A tool that is intended to be
> used for large and long-term projects has to show stamina as well
> as open-mindedness.  Using the latest technological fad (like Java)
> is a *good* idea because it allows you to navigate which parts of the
> solution space that fad helps you build.  But, dedicating your
> entire project to a fad that's less than 4 years old is *not*
> necessarily a good idea, because it doesn't allow you the synoptic
> perspective that taking an open approach allows.
> 
> A modeler can now build her models, using Swarm, with Java, ObjC, Scheme,
> and XML.  (Though I wouldn't count on the usability of the last two, yet.)
> Granted, those of us who have requirements for pure Java are not yet
> satisfied; just like there are many others with requirements that prevent
> them from using Swarm (like an underlying mathematical formalism).
> But, as for pursuing Java (and even pure-Java), I think the hive has
> done a remarkable job of being able to take advantage of new technologies
> without risking the usefulness or existence of the project on those
> new technologies.
> 
> Tools like aScape and RePast are wonderful pieces of our community
> and, I hope, we'll be able to integrate them completely.  But, being
> targeted for smaller purposes, both of those pieces have much more
> freedom than the hive has.  The hive has as its charter to support and
> develop a community that is larger than any one tool or technology.
> 
> For example, take Cody's aforementioned problem, that Swarm is on
> too ethereal a footing for Ford to seriously consider investing
> in it.  Ford is right! (Though we're steadily whittling away at that
> argument!) Swarm isn't a traditional package or project.  It uses an
> iffy proposition for distribution and licensing.  It has publicly
> supported resources.  It's a grass roots project, meaning that the
> requirements are emergent, rather than a designed-for-a-purpose (e.g.
> Linux) project.  Etc.  All these are very good reasons for a technical
> consultant to advise a corporation against doing any kind of sole-
> sourcing based on Swarm.
> 
> This is why Chris, Doug, and I started SwarmCorp.  This is why,
> Chris, Irene, Marcus, et. al. formed the SDG.  In order for a
> device (in the widest sense of the term) like Swarm to survive the
> due diligence process implemented by a software integration guy at
> a company that's at a higher than CMM level 1, we're going to have
> to *prove* that Swarm will survive fads, integrate with new technologies
> that turn out to be more than fads, evolve with changing use-case
> requirements, and, most of all, save the company some money.
> 
> So, I apologize if I seem like I'm ranting, here.  [grin]  But, I'd
> like to know what more the hive should be doing to ensure this end goal
> (proof of survivability, integration, adaptability, and efficiency) with
> respect to Java?  I'm really asking, here, not just being rhetorical.  Give
> us some feedback for what we should be doing!  Believe me, we'll listen.
> We may argue beyond your patience[grin]; but we'll try extremely hard to
> fold your requirements into the community's as a whole.
> 
> glen
> 
> 
> --
> glen e. p. ropella =><= Feeding the hamster wheel.  Hail Eris!
> Home: http://www.swarm.com/gepr                (505) 424-0448
> Work: http://www.swarm.com                      (505) 995-0818
> 
> 
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   Swarm-Modelling is for discussion of Simulation and Modelling techniques
   esp. using Swarm.  For list administration needs (esp. [un]subscribing),
   please send a message to <address@hidden> with "help" in the
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