Re: how much of a forge is SaaSS?

[Yuchen Pei]

bill-auger <bill-auger@peers.community> writes:

> i started a new thread for this discussion, to avoid steering
> the codeberg thread off-track
>
>
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:33:00 +1000 Yuchen wrote:
> > > i think that the "gist" of the SaaSS definition, is that it
> > > covers any computing task, which could be done on one local
> > > machine, or at least one controlled by the user  
> >
> > and which does not require communications with someone else's 
> > computers.
>
> using a forge (or a web browser), does not require communication
> with any other computer - it is a perfectly valid use-case, to
> operate ones own forge for private, local, use

Using a forge as a means of publishing and communication does 
require communication with other people's computer, either to view 
someone else's repos, or to let others view your repos.

> in any use-case, the use of a forge, certainly does not require
> all communications to be mediated through a third-party, who has
> no obligation nor stake in the project

SaaSS is less about mediation through a third-party than what kind 
of activities is mediated through a third party, whether it is 
doing computing on your behalf.

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:33:00 +1000 Yuchen wrote:
> > Code review, forum and mailing lists are all communications so 
> > should not count as SaaSS.
>
> the fact that communication is involved, does not exempt it from
> being SaaSS - when those communication are mediated by a forge,
> there is much more happening than simple "communication" - there
> is code being executed on a machine, which _none_ of the users
> control, but which could be executed on a machine that one (or
> all) of the users _could_ control

It is not about who controls the execution of the code, but what 
kind of functionality such execution does.

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:33:00 +1000 Yuchen wrote:
> > Take mentions for example. Say the functionality is you get an 
> > notification when someone @you in an issue tracker. Is this 
> > SaaSS?
>
> likely no; because the computation is so trivial - but the task
> itself is also trivial - a forge and a web browser are absurdly
> complicated tools for that trivial task - that same task could
> be accomplished, using only simpler, local software (email,
> XMPP, etc)

Again, whether a service counts as SaaSS has less to do with the 
complexity of the computation, but the functionality.

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:33:00 +1000 Yuchen wrote:
> > because there's no way of 
> > getting the notification without communicating with the server.
>
> yes there is - you could operate the server yourself on a
> machine that you control - other contributors would get
> notifications from your server; but at least one of the team
> members controls that server

Who controls the server is less relevant. If it is SaaSS, the fact 
you / your project control it does not mean it is no longer SaaSS, 
as people with no control to the server will still be harmed when 
using your service.

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:33:00 +1000 Yuchen wrote:
> > Clearly Forge A gives users more control than Forge B
>
> Forge A may give users more _options_ than Forge B, regarding
> which computations happen, and when; but none of the users have
> any _control_, over any of the computations, on either forge
>
>
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:33:00 +1000 Yuchen wrote:
> > Perhaps the SaaSS essay needs an update to cover the 
> > bells-and-whisles.
>
> i agree - most policies should be reviewed/revised periodically,
> to stay current with the technologies that people use
>
> likewise, these repo-criteria are showing their age, by ignoring
> self-hosting forges as a viable (if not the preferred) option,
> and indeed, the general solution to the SaaSS issue

Quote from the essay 
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.en.html):

> Rejecting SaaSS does not mean refusing to use any network 
> servers run by anyone other than you. Most servers are not SaaSS 
> because the jobs they do are some sort of communication, rather 
> than the user's own computing.

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