Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Re : diydrones.com: PAPARAZZI UAV ON PIXHAWK TEASER

[David Conger]

It is not easy to convey an impression, and a bad idea to try and say
it to a large global audience.
I will be very direct.

 I am not passing judgement on good or bad right and wrong about
anyone anywhere or companies making or not making money doing this. I
can't explain my inability to get what I'm trying to say said so I
will stop.

I always have, still do believe, success in finances as a result of
good business practices is something to respect and learn from. Yes,
absolutely, and I see it all around me. I have and continue to endorse
every company around the world that offers and sells drone things. Yes
all of them. I have bought something from virtually all of them. I
have 3 Quadshots, I have many Lisa/m autopilots and Aspirin boards. I
have tried to in my own small (as in I have little money to spend) way
endorsed and supported all of you who make Paparazzi and non-paparazzi
things available the best way I know. Buying and using them.

I respect DIY, 3DR, and those individuals behind these rather large
corporate entities now. In my badly said way I was trying to make a
different point. Clearly. I really do swear to you all I want them all
to be successful, responsibly, and prosper. This is not a small planet
or full of small needs only a couple companies can fill. There are so
many needs to fill and so few companies around to fill them. I am not
speaking in negatives or trying to say anything more than the literal
words used. Many companies are successful because they care and act in
a positive way. If they didn't they wouldn't be successful.

Bottom line I take responsibility for my messages good and bad. Just
coming here now with new words isn't changing anything. I apologize
for what was said. A significant portion of my life has been spent at
a work table or computer working hard on Paparazzi things for other
people and I really need to let go of that personal attachment to
Paparazzi things. I guess that is my only explanation why I want to
rush to defend perceived wrongs against the project online. I will
stop, it's not my place to  speak in that way.



On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Hector Garcia de Marina
<address@hidden> wrote:
> David made his point indeed. It is a fact that DIYDrones is mostly the house
> of Ardupilot and later on 3DR (as Felix pointed it seems that now they are
> in some kind of "divorce").
> However this is not about DIYDrones, their policy, culture or nationality.
> It is much more simple.
>
> Imagine that somebody posts in this mailing list that X is better than PPZ
> on the ground of Linux vs Windows (or Barcelona vs Real Madrid). The guy
> signs in the name of X organization/group and it does not seems a fake.
> What would you expect from that?
>
> - In my case (and most of the people here I would say), I would not feel
> annoyed. I just will ignore it. But if the community is sufficiently big for
> sure there will be people that will feel annoyed. This is not a surprise in
> whatever forum you consider.
> - If I belonged to such X group as an active member and somebody signs such
> a post on my behalf... well, I will feel annoyed for sure, since I will feel
> obligate to apologize in the forum. Nevertheless, I guess this is enough as
> a mature person will understand the situation.
>
>
> No one should every had strong feelings about anything I write. Ever.
> I will promise to work on that.
>
> I must admit I'm torn now about Paparazzi. I feel there is now a
> Paparazzi looking for financial success measured in units sold,
> paychecks, business success and a Paparazzi I knew that seemed
> indifferent to these measures and just existed to exist. I seem to
> align more with the one that just wants to exist.
>
> I cannot follow this logic. Of course there are people that try to make a
> business (why not?) from PPZ, but I do not see the other direction:
> Businesses are making PPZ?
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Felix Ruess <address@hidden> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok, that helps me understand it. It seemed very personal.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I should have been more clear that the first two paragraphs were a
>> reply to your post instead of just keep going on about the DIY drones post.
>> So the beginning was a reply to your remark why one would want to interact
>> DIY drones.
>> And it has nothing to do with getting someone's blessing.
>>
>>>
>>> I saw that OP on DIY and had no strong feelings at all about the OP
>>> message. I really am surprised anyone has such strong feelings about
>>> it. I didn't.
>>
>>
>> OP?
>> I'm just annoyed that aggressive, boisterous and non-factual stuff is
>> written in the whole Paparazzi team name.
>> That is what the rest of my previous message was about and it referred to
>> the Pixhawk teaser DIY post.
>> Everyone is free to voice their opinion under their own name, although I'd
>> much prefer if discussion wouldn't take such a tone.
>>
>>> No one should every had strong feelings about anything I write. Ever.
>>> I will promise to work on that.
>>>
>>> I must admit I'm torn now about Paparazzi. I feel there is now a
>>> Paparazzi looking for financial success measured in units sold,
>>> paychecks, business success and a Paparazzi I knew that seemed
>>> indifferent to these measures and just existed to exist. I seem to
>>> align more with the one that just wants to exist.
>>
>>
>> That's a strange leap... how do you come to that conclusion?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Felix Ruess <address@hidden>
>>> wrote:
>>> > I guess my post is mostly a general statement as opposed to a direct
>>> > reply
>>> > to your message...
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:14 AM, David Conger <address@hidden>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Let me be direct.
>>> >> There is the Left, the Right and the middle. I seek always the middle.
>>> >> Am I a human who falls short absolutely. Hence I am trying to be very
>>> >> direct.
>>> >> -David
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:11 PM, David Conger <address@hidden>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > Felix,
>>> >> > There must be a translation error here. Maybe something to learn
>>> >> > like
>>> >> > we did from the DIY post.
>>> >> > David
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Felix Ruess <address@hidden>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> David,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I don't believe that...
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> There are lots of great people and projects out there (and yes that
>>> >> >> includes
>>> >> >> the DIY drones crowd!).
>>> >> >> And most of them don't have financial goals in mind, but rather are
>>> >> >> Open
>>> >> >> Source Enthusiasts as well!
>>> >> >> They make cool stuff and share it with the world, just like us...
>>> >> >> isn't
>>> >> >> that
>>> >> >> enough?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> And just because there was some bad blood in a few DIY drones
>>> >> >> discussions in
>>> >> >> the past, that doesn't mean that goes for everyone there or that is
>>> >> >> has
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >> continue in that vein.
>>> >> >> Why should the interaction with other people sharing the same
>>> >> >> passions
>>> >> >> (Drones) that just happen to use other hardware/software be be
>>> >> >> avoided?
>>> >> >> If the discussions are conducted on an open minded and friendly
>>> >> >> level
>>> >> >> everyone benefits!
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I can't blame anyone for being upset or irritated by the post,
>>> >> >> since I
>>> >> >> am
>>> >> >> too!
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Let's please just try not to go down the road of insinuations,
>>> >> >> boisterous
>>> >> >> claims and weird comparisons. Stay on the level of actual facts.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> There is already enough subtext/context lost in textual
>>> >> >> communication,
>>> >> >> so
>>> >> >> everyone should take extra care with the tone of messages.
>>> >> >> Also the other way round: it's easy to read something into a
>>> >> >> message
>>> >> >> that
>>> >> >> wasn't intended by the poster, so if in doubt err on the
>>> >> >> positive/nice
>>> >> >> side.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Flame wars, more or less hidden accusations and angry messages
>>> >> >> don't
>>> >> >> benefit
>>> >> >> anyone and are just totally counter-productive and tiresome. We
>>> >> >> should
>>> >> >> all
>>> >> >> hold ourselves to higher standards than that. And often we just
>>> >> >> have to
>>> >> >> agree that we disagree on things... and that's fine.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I feel the Paparazzi UAV community is a generally a very friendly,
>>> >> >> helpful
>>> >> >> and open minded bunch and we should conduct ourselves in that way
>>> >> >> regardless
>>> >> >> with whom we interact.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Just my 2 cents...
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Cheers, Felix
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:46 PM, David Conger
>>> >> >> <address@hidden>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Interesting, I just read the DIY posts.
>>> >> >>> My first reaction though is not a surprise. Ardupilot people are
>>> >> >>> easily upset and predominately Americans who are easily upset. As
>>> >> >>> an
>>> >> >>> American who has traveled extensively I see it very clearly now.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Having met the TUDelft people personally I know they would have no
>>> >> >>> intention of posting anything in a way to upset anyone. I'm taken
>>> >> >>> back
>>> >> >>> really the depths the mob came out to burn the orig. poster at the
>>> >> >>> stake for the well intended but badly translated message.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I have been burned many times at the stake by the same mob over
>>> >> >>> the
>>> >> >>> years since 2007. The posts that were not deleted off DIYDrones
>>> >> >>> site
>>> >> >>> remain on RCGroups.com site. Anything critical, even implied via
>>> >> >>> the
>>> >> >>> reader not writer, is attacked with venom. Just their way. I don't
>>> >> >>> judge them as bad I only know you must handle them with extreme
>>> >> >>> care.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I will say, even offer, that English is my first language and I
>>> >> >>> have
>>> >> >>> been at this since 2007 watching and interacting with all the
>>> >> >>> major
>>> >> >>> players online. I know this group well from personal experiences.
>>> >> >>> On
>>> >> >>> RCGroups from the very top of 3DR and DIY they monitor the threads
>>> >> >>> and
>>> >> >>> redirect all new posters over to DIY websites where the content is
>>> >> >>> strictly controlled to be pro Ardupilot and 3DR.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> If the mob had turned against DIY or 3DR the thread would be
>>> >> >>> quickly
>>> >> >>> closed, content removed/edited. There's a long history of that
>>> >> >>> there.
>>> >> >>> It is why I really hesitate to go there or post there. RCGroups is
>>> >> >>> a
>>> >> >>> much friendlier place to have non-3DR non-Ardupilot related
>>> >> >>> discussion
>>> >> >>> but just expect the usual redirection posts saying to go to
>>> >> >>> DIYDrones
>>> >> >>> site by those monitoring and wanting more business driven over to
>>> >> >>> there. It gets hostile there also but it's a lot better than DIY.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> The bigger question to be asked I think is why do we continue to
>>> >> >>> want
>>> >> >>> the blessing of DIY? By every measure I think matters Paparazzi
>>> >> >>> Project is a huge global success. So why would something so
>>> >> >>> obviously
>>> >> >>> successful on every measure other than financial to go there to
>>> >> >>> interact with them? I encourage everyone in the developer's list
>>> >> >>> to
>>> >> >>> realize this success requires no affirmation from that mob. The
>>> >> >>> only
>>> >> >>> place financial success is glorified is in America and nothing
>>> >> >>> reinforces that like what you see happen in that post. There is a
>>> >> >>> saying, belief in America that the only truly sacred thing is
>>> >> >>> someones
>>> >> >>> financial position. Never attack someones paycheck or ability to
>>> >> >>> grow
>>> >> >>> theirs. When an American feels that threatened look out.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Why do I write this?  Well, same reason I am still here. Why I
>>> >> >>> still
>>> >> >>> would hand solder Paparazzi hardware in quantities of 1,2,3 or so
>>> >> >>> for
>>> >> >>> zero profit. Because I do not need affirmation from anyone it's
>>> >> >>> the
>>> >> >>> right thing to do or that I'm a success measured in dollars. I
>>> >> >>> feel
>>> >> >>> very successful to still offer myself and Paparazzi hardware to
>>> >> >>> anyone
>>> >> >>> even if they only want a single one. PPZUAV (my company) is
>>> >> >>> self-funded and always will be. Sure, once a long time ago there
>>> >> >>> was
>>> >> >>> that window of opportunity before DIY corporation was born but I
>>> >> >>> have
>>> >> >>> no regrets keeping PPZUAV completely under my control and
>>> >> >>> financially
>>> >> >>> independent. I have zero debt. I always have, personally and the
>>> >> >>> company.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I want never at any time to make choices aimed only at financial
>>> >> >>> gain
>>> >> >>> or ego. I see the mess it causes and how financial success is an
>>> >> >>> empty
>>> >> >>> path unless it is found by accident or as a secondary unintended
>>> >> >>> consequence of just being very good at what you do. Meaning to be
>>> >> >>> financially successful simply by doing what is correct and right
>>> >> >>> morally and for the planet is a very good thing and I endorse it
>>> >> >>> completely. However, to have a company created only to make a
>>> >> >>> profit
>>> >> >>> is a difficult path with much peril for those who walk it. I make
>>> >> >>> no
>>> >> >>> condemnation of anyone doing it.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> In my eyes the core that started Paparazzi is still alive as a
>>> >> >>> separate thing that has no consideration for monetary gain.
>>> >> >>> Everyone
>>> >> >>> who does Paparazzi should have another source of income to keep
>>> >> >>> this
>>> >> >>> separation. Paparazzi by just existing still after all these years
>>> >> >>> is
>>> >> >>> the truest form of affirmation. I really encourage all involved to
>>> >> >>> think hard about real success and focus on encouraging each other
>>> >> >>> and
>>> >> >>> helping each other because no one from 3DR or DIY will ever seem
>>> >> >>> to
>>> >> >>> change. I just had a friend tell me they read in WIred Magazine
>>> >> >>> that a
>>> >> >>> person we all know claims they invented the drone revolution...no
>>> >> >>> not
>>> >> >>> Al Gore but you're getting warm. ;)
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> The best way to grow Paparazzi is to continue doing what you do
>>> >> >>> and
>>> >> >>> know that success matters in what you do not what you say or how
>>> >> >>> much
>>> >> >>> profit you make doing it. This is to me a wonderful chance to stop
>>> >> >>> and
>>> >> >>> look at each other, smile and be happy we have each other and look
>>> >> >>> to
>>> >> >>> so many more years of success in research, sciences, and thing
>>> >> >>> that
>>> >> >>> matter for the planet that needs us more than ever right now. Do
>>> >> >>> not
>>> >> >>> seek anything from DIY crowd as it's an empty path to join or be a
>>> >> >>> part of something that measures success purely as units sold and
>>> >> >>> dollars made.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 9:28 AM, address@hidden
>>> >> >>> <address@hidden> wrote:
>>> >> >>> > Strange post. Seems to come from Delft, did someone get into
>>> >> >>> > contact
>>> >> >>> > with
>>> >> >>> > them? If we make a global reply, you can add my name to the
>>> >> >>> > signing
>>> >> >>> > if
>>> >> >>> > needed. Unfortunately I don't have much internet access time.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Gautier
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Envoyé depuis mon mobile Orange
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > ----- Reply message -----
>>> >> >>> > De : "Alexandre Bustico" <address@hidden>
>>> >> >>> > Pour : "Paparazzi UAV devel list" <address@hidden>
>>> >> >>> > Objet : [Paparazzi-devel] diydrones.com: PAPARAZZI UAV ON
>>> >> >>> > PIXHAWK
>>> >> >>> > TEASER
>>> >> >>> > Date : mer., mars 2, 2016 15:43
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Le 02/03/2016 15:38, Felix Ruess a écrit :
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Definitely not endorsed by myself...
>>> >> >>> > It really shouldn't say "The Paparazzi dev team" as it doesn't
>>> >> >>> > reflect
>>> >> >>> > the
>>> >> >>> > view of every dev member/contributor, certainly not mine!
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Martin Mueller
>>> >> >>> > <address@hidden>
>>> >> >>> > wrote:
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Nice to see support for Pixhawk
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/paparazziuav-org-on-pixhawk-teaser
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> But why advertise it so aggressively, almost dumb? Who wrote
>>> >> >>> >> that,
>>> >> >>> >> why
>>> >> >>> >> does it
>>> >> >>> >> say "The Paparazzi dev team"?
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> _
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Probably written after to many hours or days without sleeping,
>>> >> >>> > giving
>>> >> >>> > some
>>> >> >>> > excuse to the one who post.
>>> >> >>> > Anyway, we probably, as a team, apologize for this aggressive
>>> >> >>> > post
>>> >> >>> > which
>>> >> >>> > deserve us...
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > --
>>> >> >>> > Alexandre
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> >> >>> > address@hidden
>>> >> >>> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> --
>>> >> >>> address@hidden
>>> >> >>> http://www.ppzuav.com
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> >> >>> address@hidden
>>> >> >>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> >> >> address@hidden
>>> >> >> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > address@hidden
>>> >> > http://www.ppzuav.com
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> address@hidden
>>> >> http://www.ppzuav.com
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> >> address@hidden
>>> >> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> > address@hidden
>>> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> address@hidden
>>> http://www.ppzuav.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> address@hidden
>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Héctor
>
>
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