Re: Denemo-feedback

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2013-12-03 at 17:37 +0100, Noeck wrote:
> Hi Richard,
> 
> sorry for the old version. I now installed Denemo 1.1.0 from the
> website. It can't use lilypond with it for some reason (it crashes 

I trust you don't mean that Denemo itself crashes? Just that LilyPond
fails to execute? Without LilyPond running from inside Denemo you cannot
navigate by clicking on the typeset score, drag slur shapes, etc...

> when
> I want to print) but I can look around and compare.

In the Edit->Preferences->Externals tab you can set the path to
lilypond. I believe I have seen this failure to find LilyPond too when
testing the GNU/Linux binary, I don't know what that is due to.

> 
> Many things have improved a lot: The sound plays nicely, the buttons
> show no artefacts, the menus are readable.
> I like the feature that one can click on the key signature to increase
> the sharps or flats.
> 
> The look is still similar to Windows 95. On the website I saw something
> gnome-like but not in my installed version. Is that available?

I don't understand this comment - what is the link?


> 
> For my taste, there are too much buttons

By "buttons" are you referring to those in palettes? - yes they are
nearly all displayed at first. But if you close them down or hide
individual buttons (right click) they will not come back. I keep just
one line of buttons in the General Palette with those things I like to
click on rather than type a key-press.

>  with a similar meaning. E.g.
> all the slur and bracket buttons could be simplified as Frescobaldi
> does: the slur spans the selected range of notes.

The customizability of Denemo means that such a feature is easily added
by the sort of user that customizes. I did even create such
mouse-shortcuts some years ago, but found that for practical purposes
hitting 7 to start a slur and then 8 to extend and 9 to reduce the slur
was just so much quicker. (You set your own custom shortcuts by right
clicking on the menu item).

>  Also, the buttons to
> insert a note and change the current note to a different duration
> duplicate things. Wouldn't it make sense to merge them (two different
> modes
ah, yes, Denemo had modes at one time too. Modal programs are pretty
universally decried for tripping you up.
>  or a shift+click for changing).
The combinations in use by default are Digit, Shift-Digit and Letter,
Shift-Letter for durations and note names respectively, for
inserting/changing respectively. 
>  It would also be convenient to
> move the current note up or down with the up/down key (it moves only the
> cursor).
You could set that up but then you would need a different key press to
move the cursor rather than the note.
I believe there is still a mouse-drag of notes up and down (setting the
caps lock I think), but I wonder how much it is used.
Mouse gestures can be customized by the user, but then they get in the
way of more serious use (no one seriously enters music using a mouse -
it is unbelievably slow).
That was one of the reasons for that "Profile" dialog that was the first
thing in the old 0.9.6 - if you chose "mouse user" you would get
something like that. "LilyPond User" on the other hand would get more
familiar short cuts and, more importantly, would get things like \repeat
volta 2 { ..... } which to a user unaware of LilyPond is quite baffling
- they just want to put :| in the score.

> 
> I am still confused by the cursors, one | marking the point in time and
> a square marking the current note/pitch. It is sometimes green,
> sometimes blue.

yes, the colors reflect the fill of the bar - this is explained in that
first big tooltip on the main display area I think.

> 
> It is not clear to me how a new measure is started. At the beginning it
> worked (like in LP) automatically but later I had measures with more
> than 4 beats (coloured in read) and the automatic bar line was missing.

yes, Denemo does not stop you overfilling a bar if you want, but
LilyPond will not typeset them unless you issue the appropriate command.
If you enter notes in the middle of the bar Denemo will not bump other
notes into the next bar - usually that makes no sense, and would be very
annoying if you were adding notes just temporarily prior to deleting
some others - after all, it could hardly go and get them back again.
If such is a normal thing in your use you would want to set a short cut
on the "Split the bar at the cursor" command. You just select the menu
item and press the key you want as a short cut.

> 
> The menus are very full which is probably a result of putting everything
> in that is possible
not everything by several orders of magnitude, but most things that
Denemo has are there, just a few are hidden (e.g. LilyPond style
repeats, because a novice would get in a mess).

>  (which is good to have). But an intelligent
> reduction would be needed (imho). E.g. for slurs you have to search a
> while: Notes/Rests > Markings > Slurs > Begin slur

That is because until this release there was no other way of discovering
what the short cut was for the command, you had to navigate there and
look at the short cut (in blue). Now we have the command center we could
start to hide more.

> 
> The menues are difficult to browser, because the tooltip/hint is often
> very large and covers the menu.

Help->Newbie tames them somewhat, and then Edit->Preferences->command
behavior allows you to reduce the annoyance (for my taste the default is
too quick to pop up, but it is a gtk default ...)


> 
> What is the reason for not chosing LP shortcuts for input:
> (=start slur, )=end it, 8=eigth note, r=rest etc. It would train people
> a bit to this well designed representation.
> , works to go down one octave, but ' does not go up.

' should be octave up, do you have a non-qwerty keyboard? (Look at the
Octave Up command and press the ' key while it is selected).

The reason to use 789 for slurs is speed. In the LilyPond profile (and
Denemo originally back in 1999) they were ( and ), but it is slower. Of
course with one press of a key while the Begin Slur menu item is
highlighted you can change that. In fact, there are even more slur
entering speed-ups: when entering durations you can use Ctrl-0, 1, to
enter the duration slurring from the previous note. It means you can
enter rhythms complete with slurs in "music time" -
https://vimeo.com/62188678 gives the idea (but pre-dates the slur
thing). Nowadays you can enter dotted rhythms slurred too using two
keystrokes (and triplets using three, slurred with Control key).

> 
> The dot button and the accidental buttons as well as key signatures and
> clefs work nicely.
> 
> I am still not convinced but it is definitely in a better state and
> there were many improvements.

Right now I have a new entry option nearly complete - playing on a MIDI
keyboard and then entering the rhythm. I believe these methods allow
entry of music at many times the rate that conventional methods yield,
and with better enjoyment in the process.

Richard