[Lilypond-auto] [LilyIssues-auto] [testlilyissues:issues] Re: Ticket 450

"David Kastrup" address@hidden writes:

"Alexander Kobel" address@hidden writes:

Forced extenders are required for some manual tweaks or, again,
special purposes such as lone notes before volta repeats, where an
extender into the second repeat bracket needs to be indicated. (BTW,
there have been wishes that the mutually exclusive collapse-length
and forced-length are not merged into one property.)

I'll have to read up on it.

Starting from scratch, I'd opt for translating the __ token to
forced extenders. However, a reinterpretation of __ was not
well-received.

It isn't an actual reinterpretation as far as I see it: by setting the
equivalent of no-extenders you'll get back the previous behavior
exactly.

Also, ignoring and deprecating __ for a while leaves lyrics (with
manual extenders) compatible between 2.19.55+some and earlier (in
particular, 2.18.x) versions.

Where do you see any incompatibility in my proposal.

Again, all these points have been discussed in a heap of mails on
-devel end of 2016. Just to make sure we are on the same page.

I'll read up on it. Sorry for this mess.

Ok, I read up about half of it. This is embarrassing since Knut's
original design and thoughts were a lot closer to what I would have
considered good practice than what he let himself be persuaded to
change. So I cannot really blame him and others for being miffed at my
very late start into that issue. When reading those discussions, I go
somewhat like

ok, good, ok, bad idea, good, why?, good, what?, well if you do that you
sort of have to, ok, ok...

So the problem is that there is really no good way to hook into those
discussions after the fact and let them converge on something else.
Particularly when that "something else" was already almost there.

I'll be able to justify most of my proposals (or step back from them),
but it's really bad that I made others waste time, effort, planning,
focus, persuasion on different plans.

I don't know how to get this back on track in a manner where everybody
involved feels good about the work he did on this issue.

--
David Kastrup

[issues:#4509] Enhancement: automatically engrave lyric extenders

Status: Started
Created: Sat Jul 18, 2015 03:23 AM UTC by Anonymous
Last Updated: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:31 PM UTC
Owner: Alexander Kobel
Attachments:

Selection_005.png (263.8 kB; image/png)

Originally created by: *anonymous

Originally created by: address@hidden

Actually, this is a content vs. presentation issue. The current approach has lyric extenders ‘hardcoded’ within the lyricmode input, whereas often it depends on layout whether I want an extender printed or not:
– In tight horizontal spacing, we might not need an extender, but when spacing is stretched, it might become necessary. This can come through different (page/line) breaking, parallel contexts present only in some editions (part vs. score), Completion_heads_engraver (mensural without barlines/transcription with barlines).
– Long syllables might not need an extender, where short syllables do.
– Often, all voices share the same text, but have extenders in different places. If extenders need not be given explicitly, the lyricmode input code can be reused much easier.

After all, the extenders don’t add any additional meaning, but only serve to improve legibility in such cases where they do.

This would require:
– Recognising the end of a word by absence of a hyphen.
– Comparing printed length of the melisma notes vs. the syllable, likely after line breaking. After all, extenders will never influence horizontal spacing. They might, however, affect vertical spacing. (unless we chose to omit (or shift) the extender in that case?)
– Personally, I think very short extenders shouldn’t be printed. There should be some kind of threshold.
It’s also one of the usecases where a proper representation of a ‘lyric word’ would be helpful, along with issue 2458.

Possibly related:
issue 4098

Version 2.12 had this listed as a Known issue.

https://codereview.appspot.com/313240043 )

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From:	Auto mailings of changes to Lily Issues
Subject:	[Lilypond-auto] [LilyIssues-auto] [testlilyissues:issues] Re: Ticket 4509 discussion
Date:	Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:31:49 +0000