Re: [Help-liquidwar6] New level xml's

[Kasper Hviid]

I accidently deleted my feedback to your feedback ... here it is again:

2009/11/22 Christian Mauduit <address@hidden>
>
> On Fri, November 20, 2009 1:03 pm, Kasper Hviid wrote:
> > I have given my levels a bit of XML update. Download here:
> >
> > http://www.kasperhviid.dk/stuff/levels.zip
> Cool, I committed it this afternoon, will be in tonight's snapshot.
>
> > I wanted to use some of the new png files, but I ended up only using a bit
> > of glue.png at the fishy level. I think the levels have to be designed
> > especially for those cool new pngs, or at least have their graphic
> > updated.
> Probably. There's indeed a need for some sort of feedback for players, one
> can't put one-way stuff amywhere ;)
>
> > Comments and criticism are welcome! I'm still learning to handle those xml
> > properties.
> My remarks below, under each of your map description.
>
> > ATLANTIS
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I drew a labyrinth on paper, scanned it and traced its outline in
> > Illustrator. I did the painting in Photoshop CS3. It ended up looking
> > quite
> > cool. It took a while to draw all the ornaments, though.
> > GAMEPLAY: I have aimed at somewhat large armies, to fill out a large part
> > of
> > the labyrinth. Most of the settings are the default. fighter-attack is
> > 1200
> > (normally 500) and fighter-defence is 200 (normally 50) This is to speed
> > thing up a bit. The level still suffer from the problem that it is quite
> > hard to finish an enemy off.
> > TEAM COLORS: The colors of the armies are has a lower saturation, and
> > tinted
> > a bit towards the color of the background. The idea was to give them an
> > underwater feel. It is a bit hard to change the colors, since you also
> > wants
> > it to be possible to distingust each of the ten individual teams from each
> > others. If you want to change the colors, do it in your drawing program.
> > Don't try to guess the right hex values.
> > MENU COLORS: The dark color is "sailor blue", the bright color is cyan.
> > (When you need a bright color, alway pick one of those hues which are
> > naturally bright, such as cyan or yellow. Semilar, if you need a dark
> > colors, select one of the hues which a naturally dark)
> I see you RTFM'ed a lot to do this! For instance having spreads-per-round
> set to a bigger value (5) than the default (3) is a bright idea here.
> Still, I tend to think redefining values such as nb-attack-tries
> nb-defense-tries and nb-move-tries to their defaults is not appropriate.
> If the level is happy with the defaults, let the game use defaults.

There can be two entirely different reasons for using the default values:
CASE A: The designer does not care much about the property, so he just let it stay at default. Since it is "default" we are after, it makes sense to delete the property from rules.xml and let the game define the value.
CASE B: The designer has found out which values fits the level best. By a coincidence, this happens to be the same as the default value. I think it make sense to re-define to default here, since it is the exact values we wants, not whatever the default happens to be.
This is the reason my levels contains some unnecessary stuff like x-polarity = 0 ... just to make sure it stay that way.
On the other hand, I have deleted properties like max-nb-cursors, which I have no opinion about.
Anyway, this was just what I figured would be the best choice. I don't mind deleting the properties, if this is more correct.
(Regarding Atlantis, my idea here was to have a map which stayed (somewhat) at default. So It *was* a mistake to redefine the values to default here.)
 
>
> On the other hand I realize that there's no easy way to say
> "nb-defense-tries must be bigger than usual" since the XML files only
> offer absolute attributes. This makes me think of the everlasting problem
> of font sizes in web pages. Graphists want absolute font size because they
> have picky-picky issues with text matching background images and other
> decorations, while web purists and semantic fanatics want relative font
> size such as "+1"or "-1". I think we should work on something like this.
> Allowing, possibly for any "rules.xml" parameter, to be able to specify
> both an absolute and "relative" value. Ideally, in your XML files, you
> would only say "nb-defense-tries must be higher than usual". Then the
> player could still raise it, the same way saying "font is large" in a web
> page causes it to be bigger than the default font, the size of which is
> chosen by the end-user.
>
> What do you think of it?
>
> BTW, this remarks apply to most of the levels, but I made it here cause
> atlantis was first in the list ;)

I think I understand the idea -- if you change one value, the other values will adjust themselves to keep the relationship intact.

The xml values is already in relation to each other:
  <int key="fighter-attack" value="1200"/>
  <int key="fighter-defense" value="250"/>
  <int key="fighter-new-health" value="5000"/>
  <int key="fighter-regenerate" value="5"/>
All we need is a <bool key="keep-relations" value="true"/> which tells the engine to adjust the other values when one is changed. Of course, this will only work if the player change one value from inside the game.

It could be good for xml testing to be able to change one property and have all the other properties adjust to it. I have a bit of mixed feelings for this one. I don't like that it adds more tech stuff that level designers has to understand. Also, I would feel like I was no longer in control if I used it. On the other hand I don't feel I completely understand the concept ... and it do sounds quite innovative!

>
> And - and this is my last atlantis remark - I tend to dislike contrasted
> colors (pure cyan, pure green, ...) in menus, since those colors are sort
> of "reserved" for teams. I acknowledge this level has attenuated colors
> for teams (underwater, as you mention) but still, I think some bright, but
> less saturated (getting closer to white or grey) color would be less
> aggressive.

I really like aggressive colors, but you are right - it makes sense to use more discrete colors for the menu.
 
>
> > FISHY
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This level began with the idea of using a twisted, horizontal wraparound
> > in
> > a level, where it looks like there are a non-twisted horizontal
> > wraparound.
> > Why does this sound like nonsense when I try to express it in words?
> > Another
> > idea in this level is the use of two separated areas, only connected by
> > wraparounds. It is created with Photoshop CS3. I tried to make it look a
> > bit
> > like an old map.
> > GAMEPLAY: The fighters have zero defense, but I let them regenerate
> > instead.
> > They have zero side attack, which means that they will attack in one
> > direction only. Also, their priorities lies in moving towards the cursor,
> > they are only fighting when they absolutly has to. The result is some
> > fighters which can really dig into the enemy. Their behavior have a very
> > natural look, almost like plants or fractals. As mentioned above, the map
> > contains two areas only connected by wraparounds. I have let the area
> > below
> > have a slower time, using glue.png
> > TEAM COLORS: I have tinted the colors a bit to make them blend into the
> > yellow tone of the map.
> Very good job, I love this one. The background is one of my preferred
> anyway, but with the slow "below" area and the various options tweaked,
> it's just even cooler. I take it the way it is, nothing to change IMHO. My
> only concern with this one is that https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?27805 is
> still not fixed so if you ever zoom on this map (using mouse wheel for
> instance) everything goes wrong. I *must* fix this.
>
> > INFESTIVAL
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > A map without any visible walls - only a few hatchet lines guides the way.
> > GAMEPLAY: Fighter-scale is only 2, which is possible because the armies
> > are
> > so small: single-army-size = 14 and total-armies-size = 40
> > The rest of the values is kinda mainstream, except fighter-new-health
> > which
> > I have lowered from 5000 to 2500, which gives the battle fronts a darker
> > color.
> > TEAM COLORS: I had considered giving the fighters a red tone, but so far,
> > all the colors are quite normal.
> I just like the reddish "welcome to hell" effect, looks good. For this one.
>
> > INK-AND-OIL
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I finally finished a tush a ink drawing I had started a long time ago. In
> > Photoshop, the drawing was inverted and combined with a monotype painting
> > I
> > had created with oil paint.
> > GAMEPLAY: I have set single-army-size and total-armies-size pretty low.
> > fighter-new-health is only 50 while fighter-defense is as high as 250.
> > Notice the sharp black lines where the armies fights. Pretty!
> mmm, here the cyan (menu fonts) and white (gauges, cursors) stick out too
> much for me, they don't match the rather smooth aspect of the map. Maybe
> this is because you wanted the background to be more contrasted? In that
> case maybe you could dissociated those. I can help if you want, telling
> you what parameters to change exactly, but I may be over-interpreting what
> you're trying to do.

The reason I used the white is that the cursors otherwise would switch between the team color and cyan. I'll look into it.
 
>
> > LIQUID-DREAM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Drawn with pencil, inked with pen & ink, colorized with Photoshop CS3
> > GAMEPLAY: Tried some stuff ... bah, gotta try again - lowered the speed a
> > bit. I think it's OK now.
> > TEAM COLORS: I have mixed the colors with the greyish color of the water.
> I like the way you work on team colors. But again, the white for team
> gauges is a bit too much for me.
>
> > PIZZA-FACE
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This level began with the idea of several horizontal wraparound passages,
> > which are pushed together at the edge of the screen.
> > The texture is painted with pencil and pen, and colorized in Photoshop
> > CS3.
> > I tried to make this level brighter than usual, and I am quite sure that I
> > failed. I also tried to make the aspect ratio close to the 16:10
> > widescreen
> > format.
> > GAMEPLAY: Really low defense, but extremely high regenerate instead.
> Mmm, one thing you don't mention is that you lowered nb-move-tries to 3,
> which changes things *a lot*. Having such a change in one map, just to
> show the possibilities, is interesting, but in Pizza face it makes it
> really hard to "finish" an enemy when it's stuck in one of those side
> passages.

That sounds logical. It is a bit hard to understand the actual effects of those nb-something-tries, so sometimes I just change them to see what happens. That is how I discovered the relationsship between the fuzzyness of the army and nb-defense-tries

>
> > PLAYFIELD
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Inspired by 3D postcards. Created using Photoshop CS3 and scanned artwork.
> > GAMEPLAY: I used a low nb-defense-tries to give it that wild, fuzzy look.
> Cool! Maybe I would lower fighter-defense too, but well, it's a question
> of taste, I let it up to you.

Tried it, seems cool

>
> > SINUSOID
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Painted in Photoshop CS3. The practical purpose of this map was to use the
> > wrap-around feature of LW6. The map is just a vertical sinus curve, with
> > horizontal paths connecting it with itself. I'm a great fan of Art
> > Nouveau,
> > so I tried to make a lot of natural looking forms. Quite a bit of work!
> > GAMEPLAY: I used a really nifty trick here: I stole the rules.xml from
> > another map, namely "Fishy".  I lowered the number of fighters to make
> > this
> > rather complex map a less confusing experience.
> I like the colors & shape a lot. And warpping levels are cool ;) I feel
> the various rules tweaks are pretty nice here, the algorithm behaves
> strangely but it's good to change sometimes. I would still not put
> defense-tries to 7 (which slows things down!) with a fighter-defense of 0.
> It's pointless,

Hey, you're right
 
>
> you should set defense-tries to 1 and maybe
> fighter-defense to something like 1 to have a minimum healing in time.

Done! But shouldn't <int key="fighter-regenerate" value="500"/> give quite a bit of healing in time? What am I missing?
 
>
> Your settings in this map might also reveal some bugs in my code. I sould
> investigate.
>
> > STRANGE-NEW-WORLD
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This is a bit of fanart, a remake of one of the classic Liquid War levels.
> > The 1:1 aspect ratio is kept for historical reasons. It is painted in
> > Photoshop CS3. The background is one of my monotype paintings. I hope that
> > step wasn't to bold.
> > MUSIC: The music is the original thmoov.mid from Liquid War 5, Created by
> > Tim Chadburn
> > His homepage:
> > http://orbitalwintersong.org.uk/
> > GAMEPLAY: I have tried to keep this one as LW5 as possible, using normal
> > colors for the fighters and pixilation. I didn't change the
> > fighter-values.
> > MENU COLORS: menu inspired by the original: Red text on black background.
> Good idea to pick one of Tim's LW5 midis! As far of the menu colors are
> concerned, hum, well, LW5 was know for its ugliness on that part, so I
> don't think we need to insist on that line ;) The reddish stuff is really
> cool in infestival, but here, well, it's too much for me. I dunno why,
> just a feeling. It's cool too to have this one pixelized, but it raises
> another problem : should we keep this as the default map? I mean, your
> other maps are pretty neat, and if we lead users *by default* on a map
> which has pixelized turned on, well... Same for ratio, BTW, we probably
> don't want a squared map by default. A stretchable one might be better (by
> saying this I'm aware this contradicts my own position a few years ago).
> So well, I'd keep this one with pixelized, maybe a little more fighters (I
> think LW5 did have more, but I'm not 100% sure), and pick up another one
> as "default map". And here, I'd like to hear your opinion on this, and
> anybody and the list as well, for the "default" map is really a matter of
> importance ;) See for instance this review :
> http://www.pixelprospector.com/indev/2009/10/liquid-war-6/ which ends up
> by showing the *default* map. Not very surprising but this is just to
> illustrate the importance of that point.

I can't really decide which one should be the default map. But you're right, it is an important decision, also because it will be the players first impression of the game.
On the same note, it is important how we descripe the gameplay. The words we use are likely to be copypasted. Do we talk about pixels, blobs, liquid, armies, fighters or particles? "You control an army of liquid and have to try and eat your opponents." is quite good, I think.
 
>
> > SUBFLOWER
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > A level with flowers in it. I tried to give it a underwater feel.
> > Painted with pen and ink. Colored in Photoshop.
> > GAMEPLAY: I honestly can't remember why I did whatever I did. But I think
> > it's okay.
> > TEAM COLORS: The whole level has a cyan multiply-layer on top. So has the
> > teams.
> Good one, there's a need for those wide-opened levels where fighters can
> move pretty much anywhere. Maybe this one would be a good candidate to
> raise the single-army-size and total-armies-size, I feel it could stand
> "many people hanging out".

Good idea.
You are right, we do need a few more open-level maps. Maybe we should use some of the extra levels such as acadia, darkness, fish or into-the-void for the main package.

>
> So well, these were my comments.
>
> Hope I wasn't too harsh on some issues, I just gave you my impressions.

Thanks for the feedback - It's much appreciated :-)

>
> I should also make the nightly scripts generate an "extra-maps" snapshot
> tarball as well. This way you could more easily access to the sample "show
> off" maps I quick-draw when implementing new features such as glue,
> one-way and the rest. Not that I doubt you can master this, I'm sure you
> already do, but I also do think it's convenient to have as many working
> examples as possible.

Good idea!

>
> Thanks for your patience and time, and have a nice day,
>
> Christian.
>
> --
> Christian Mauduit <address@hidden> - http://www.ufoot.org/ ___ __/\__
> Liquid War 6 - http://www.gnu.org/software/liquidwar6/     / _")\~ \~/
> "Les amis de la vérité sont ceux qui la cherchent et non _/ /   /_ o_\
> ceux qui se vantent de l'avoir trouvée" - Condorcet     (__/      \/
>
>
>
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