Re: AW: [h-e-w] EmacsW32, gnuserv, pathes in .emacs

[David Vanderschel]

On Tuesday, July 11, <address@hidden> wrote:
>again, a short pdf-file with the following points
>would be very helpfull for a really beginner. a
>beginner who doesn't know about emacs really nothing.

In this discussion, I wonder why the official GNU
Emacs FAQ For Windows 95/98/ME/NT/XP and 2000 at
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/ntemacs.html
has not been brought up.  I know that its maintenance
lately has been somewhat poor; but the latest update
on the Web page now says May 24.  It seems to me that
it already addresses many of the problems that
Christian seems to think should be addressed with a
PDF.  

I do not understand why Christian wants a PDF.  HTML
seems much more reasonable for addressing these sorts
of issues.  I am quite certain that RMS would be
strongly opposed to a PDF.  If it is so that the
document can be printed in a way that looks good, it
turns out that the source format for the Info files
has been designed so that they can also be processed
with TeX macros, in which case they are formatted very
nicely and in a manner well-suited to printing.
Indeed, this is what you get if you order the Emacs
manual in hard copy from the FSF.

I checked Lennart's EmacsW32 pages, and I could not
see a link to the Windows FAQ.  On his "Emacs at
OurComments.org" page, there is a link to a kind of
'root' page for Emacs:
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs.html 
In its Section 6, Getting Help with Emacs, it
references both the general Emacs FAQ at 
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-faq.text
and the Windows Emacs FAQ.  The general emacs FAQ is a
bit dated; but for the basic sorts of information
needed by a beginner, it should still be good.  IMO,
its plain text format is not a serious drawback.

Lennart, you may not care for the Windows FAQ, but it
seems to me that you are doing the users of your
EmacsW32 package a disservice by not providing a
"for further information" type of link to it.  I don't
think the fact that you can get there via the link to
what I called the 'root' page for Emacs is sufficient.

>1) installation and configuration (for me especially
>   with windows)

Well covered in the Windows FAQ.  Lennart's package is
not the only way to do it; but it is definitely an
easier way and a way by which one is less likely to
get fouled up.  OTOH, the Windows FAQ can certainly
give more insight into what is going on in the
installation process.

>2) simple emacs-commandos like described in the
>   tutorial in the emacs help menu

If "like described in the tutorial", then it would be
redundant.  To run the tutorial, you need only install
Emacs and click on the Help menu.  There is no
bootstrapping issue here, as no initial configuration
is required.

>3) more extensivly examples for typical editing tasks
>   like search and replace, copy and paste, rectangle
>   editing, ...and so on. only with examples newbies
>   can see the possibilities of emacs

To the extent that they are not already covered in the
tutorial, most of these sorts of things are covered in
the general Emacs FAQ - in particular in its Section 
5 on Common Requests.

>4) a few word about the .emacs file and customization

Why?  The Emacs Info file is fairly thorough on this
subject - with examples.  Node name: "Init File"

The real problem here lies less in how to do it, but
in learning what can be customized and what one's
criteria for doing so would be.  That takes experience
with the system; but, as you learn about new packages
for emacs, you also learn what about them is
customizable.  There is no rush though, as the most
basic functions are configured in a reasonable manner
by default.  Furthermore, as Eli pointed out, the
Customization feature on the Help Menu will usually
put the appropriate elisp commands in a user's .emacs
file without the user having to understand elisp
syntax.

>5) a glossary with the special emacs terms

As Eli has pointed out, the 'i' command in Info is
very helpful on this front.

>it's a little bit like the book which was recommended by vincent:

>>The solution I went for was to buy Learning GNU
>>Emacs 3rd Edition, Cameron et al, pub O'Reilly.
>>ISBN 0-596-00648-9

>but with much less content. for the first activation
>energy to climb the emacs-hill. i think the
>activation energy you have to invest is much bigger
>for using emacs than for a comparable tool if a
>comparable tool exists at all.

Personally, I do not feel that there is any 'gap'
which needs filling and which 'gap' falls between the
book and the freely available information about emacs
which comes with it and which is available on the
Internet.  For those for whom the free documentation
remains insufficient, the book is a reasonable
alternative.  (I think I now know a lot about Emacs,
and I have never had access to such a book.)

>p.s. i think the emacs hill for windows user is still
>steeper. i installed the windows-binaries from the
>gnu-page. there was no toolbar available for me, 

?  But the Menu Bar is enabled by default, is it not?
The functions are there.  No need for icons.  (I don't
think a tool bar with icons would be in the spirit of
GNU Emacs; but I think you can get this with xemacs.)

>also no copy, paste, ... 

?  They are right there on the Edit Menu.

>so the emacsW32 is a really important project for
>windows users, especially for beginners. but also
>linux users have beginning problems. i tested emacs
>also with open suse 10.0. there was no gnuserve
>available so that it starts for every .txt-file a new
>emacs-instance. 

Only the Windows version uses gnuserv.  There is also
emacs-server (for which a much anticipated new version
is expected to be able to work with Emacs under
Windows - eventually).  emacs-server probably needs to
be configured for Linux.

>i know the right way is to open files with c-x c-f or
>the dired and so on. but for a new user ist often
>much simpler to click at an file or to use the
>context-menu. 

Back to Windows?  Emacs can be configured so that
these things do work with Emacs.  I think Lennart's
package facilitates configuring it so that it does so.
My Windows OS is configured so that Emacs is the
default editor for opening any file of type unknown to
the OS and for a great many other file types for which
a plain text editor is appropriate (like .log, .txt,
.java).  I also have an "Open in Emacs" option on the
Explorer context menus for both directories and files.
You can also use drag and drop with Emacs.

If the point is about Linux, I would bet that these
things can be configured to work as desired there as
well.

>also the interaction between the kill-ring and the
>clipboard is with linux more complicated, at least
>for me.

Its behaviour in this respect is probably
configurable.  (I have not tried it under Linux; but
it is definitely configurable for Windows.  In my own
configuration, killed stuff does not go on the
Clipboard for Windows.  (I did that because I use a
utility for Windows which maintains a stack of items
Copied to the Windows Clipboard.  I did not want that
Clipboard stack to be cluttered with every little
thing I ever kill in Emacs.)  I use a separate command
to explicitly Copy to the Windows Clipboard only what
I want to go there from Emacs.  (Also a separate
command to Paste into an Emacs buffer from the Windows
clipboard.))


Emacs is sufficiently complex that any newcomer is
going to have to spend some effort to get started.
During the initial learning stages there will be
frustration; but I don't think it is fair to transform
that frustration into an evaluation of the available
documentation.  The documentation is more than
adequate - in fact, far better than I get with most
commercial software products.  The problem in Emacs's
case is the shear volume of the relevant 
documentation - a problem that cannot be overcome
easily without some commitment on the part of the
beginner.  But it is ultimately worth the effort
because Emacs is so powerful and so adaptable to so
many activities.

Hang in there, Christian!

Regards,
  David V.