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Re: GRUB 2 development

From: Marco Gerards
Subject: Re: GRUB 2 development
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:22:43 +0100
User-agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux)

"Yoshinori K. Okuji" <address@hidden> writes:

> On Saturday 10 November 2007 18:53, Marco Gerards wrote:
>> The problem currently is that, accidently, we lose track of
>> outstanding bugs and patches.  It is frustrating to both developers
>> and people sending in patches/bugreports.
> Ah, really. For me, it is not "accidentally" but "naturally". ;)


>> Hopefully we can start using a bug tracker soon.  There are many that
>> are good.  In my opinion the mailinglist and wiki doesn't work for us
>> anymore.
> Hmm... I don't agree completely with this argument in my experience. When the 
> aim is to track issues, email or wiki does not work so well (unless you use a 
> kind of plugin to the wiki to make wiki a bug tracker). But for discussions, 
> email or irc is much better. A bug tracker could work as well as email, if it 
> supports email integration (which I tried with BugCommunicator, and failed 
> due to many inconsistencies among email client implementations).

My goal is to track issues.  Perhaps I was not clear, but I really
like IRC and especially email for discussions.

> So, in reality, I used a bug tracker only for recording purpose. Bugs are 
> registered, then discussions are done in email. Once something is determined 
> (fixed, cancelled or whatever), the bug tracker is updated.
> After then, I realized that a wiki was good enough for recording. I felt that 
> it was easier to access and update info on a wiki than on a bug tracker.

It just doesn't work out...  Besides that, bug tracking systems are
better when you are working on something with a group of people.

> Besides that, maybe as I said before, the real problem is noise. For GRUB 
> Legacy, I mostly used email. When a message looked important, and I didn't 
> have time to deal with it immediately, I marked the message as "important" so 
> that I could look up for such messages later (a feature implemented by any 
> modern MUA). If a message was just bogus, I just skipped it over.
> Once I started to use the bug tracker on Savannah, of course, people started 
> to post bugs there. Then, all messages were "important", because they were 
> registered in the database. A lot of my time was consumed to deal with silly 
> posts, such as just "GRUB does not work, help me!". So, instead of marking 
> important messages, I had to mark non-important messages.

Other people can't see how we mark messages in our inbox.  That's the

> So did it make my life any easier to have a bug tracker? I hardly believe it. 
> Therefore, these days, my usage of bug/issue trackers is to limit people who 
> can post bugs to known people. This way, I can make my email-based-hand-made 
> tracker a bit more structured and sharable with other people, yet not having 
> noise very much.
> Surely, this way also has a disadvantage that somebody else must submit a bug 
> to a tracker every time when an important issue is raised by an unknown 
> person. The question is, after all, whether bad messages should be deleted or 
> good messages should be added... Personally, I think it is rather a rare 
> event that an unknown person makes a good report, in comparison with from a 
> known person, especially when taking it into account that a good reporter 
> tends to become a repeater, thus become a known person quickly.
> So I don't object to having a bug trakcer, but I recommend you considering 
> carefully whether you want to encourage everybody to submit bugs to a bug 
> tracker.

We could ask people to send an email and after that put the bug on the
bugtracker?  If people submit reports that cannot be understand, we
simply have to remove the report I think, otherwise it becomes noisy.

>> Many projects use bugzilla.  Perhaps it isn't perfect, but it does
>> what I want.  I just do not have the resources to set that up.
>> Perhaps someone else knows something better.
> No, the current trend is trac or a trac-like system, such as redMine. :)

Ah :)

So can we use savannah?  And for what shall we use it?  Bugs, patches,
todo items?  If it doesn't work out, we can switch or stop using it.
But as I see it now, we need such tool for good collaboration.


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