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Re: [Groff] groff as a backend


From: joerg van den hoff
Subject: Re: [Groff] groff as a backend
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:49:09 +0100
User-agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913)

Peter Schaffter wrote:
On Wed, Dec 15, 2004, Larry McVoy wrote:

I think one thing that is missing is a WYSIWIG system which spits out roff on the back end.


I'm no fan of WYSIWYG except for really complex page layout, but
I can certainly see the usefulness of this for people migrating to
*nix-like OSes from Windows and Mac.  Also, as I've discovered,
engraving music using GNU Lilypond, there are times when doing
initial work WYSIWYG-style, then refining by editing the output
file, is a tremendous timesaver.


Another problem is that the design of the roff suite of tools is a series
of filters.  I.e., pic | eqn | tbl | groff.  The problem with that is that
the earlier stages of the pipeline don't have enough knowledge of the state
of the doc when they are called.


Got to admit, that bugs me, too.


Another problem is that roff is single pass.  This makes widow and orphan
processing pretty much impossible. It also makes things like table of contents be something you have to do outside the system.


Not sure why you think TOCs have to be done outside the system.
The mom macros, for example, generate TOCs from the source file.
Unless it's that you don't like manually inserting a TOC from the
end of a stack of output pages into the top of the pile, or using a
PostScript utility to do the same thing.
as an otherwise quite content user of groff: I would agree that the single pass approach has really drawbacks. one probably can work around most of them but not all, I believe: - forward references to some (unknown, i.e. variable) page further 'down' the document? (maybe with two separate runs of groff and some automated editing of the source?). - running headers/footers which correctly show the section number and title even if the section does start somewhere in the middle of the page (i.e. is not yet known, when the new page is started)?

as for the TOC: well, I too have my scripts to get it to the front of the document in the end but it remains a pain

but anyway: groff is great and I'm happy with it nearly all the time.

Finally, there is the whole problem of "glitzy". We need good image and color support. Lots of docs want this.


Am I missing something?  I've been using a combination of groff,
the mom macros and PSPIC to create colourful, glitzy posters and
flyers for quite some time now.






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