Re: [Fsuk-manchester] Fwd: Event: Manchester Girl Geek Dinner #2 - 7:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008

[Paul Robinson]

On 29 Jul 2008, at 12:14, MJ Ray wrote:

> Got a link, please?


It was before the move to Google groups, and the archives are closed.


> One difference is that it was a *feeling* of exclusion, not an actual
> one.  Few "geek industries" events *actually* exclude women, as far as
> I know.


Maybe not intentionally, but in fact, they actually subconsciously do  
exclude women. That's the problem.


> I have challenged such policies in the past and actually been told  
> to go create other events with "men-only" policies - of course, I  
> hope that few men would be stupid enough to support such an event,  
> but "women-only" events legitimise them.
> That's really not good for equality, is it?


These events aren't a bunch of women being discriminatory: these  
events are needed as a starting block to get diversity out of the  
starting blocks somehow.

The only thing GGD does is take ONE EVENT out of the EIGHTEEN  
currently on the local scene and try to redress the balance for one  
evening every few months. And what do narrow-minded morons do? Shout  
them down as being "discriminatory" as if the other eighteen are  
balanced, female-friendly and gender-neutral somehow.


> "Men, form a begging line here!"?


That's exactly the attitude they don't want there.

Nobody wants attitude in the room. That kind of snideness is the  
reason the events exist the way they do.


> Current inequality should lead us to fight for equality, not to add  
> more
> inequality in a misguided attempt to fiddle the figures and meet
> targets.  Greater inequality will never bring true equality.


To suggest we fight current inequality by giving more access to men is  
just absurd.


> If I'm told about any men-only event, I will criticise it and I will
> probably also be better able to change it, because my opinion won't be
> criticised merely because I'm a man.


If it were a man-only event in nursing, childcare, or any other  
industry where men are looked down upon within society as a whole and  
within the industry in particular, I doubt you'd be able to argue very  
convincingly.

The issues some genders face in some industries right now are gender- 
specific. They shouldn't be, but the inequality is such that there  
needs to be gender-related redress until there is genuine equality. IT  
is meant to be a meritocracy in terms of its workforce, however it is  
dominate by white, middle-class males. There is no reason for it to be  
like that, unless you accept that the industry is generally racist,  
class-orientated and sexist.

If you're going to tell me that it isn't racist, elitist or sexist,  
you lose all arguments because you clearly haven't worked in the  
industry very long.

Right now, GGD is a social event that attempts to try and find a way  
forward for women in the industry who want to encourage more women  
into the industry and share experience of how to adapt in an industry  
with hostile working conditions. It's not like it's actively hurting  
you through its existence, unless of course you feel threatened by it.


> This discrimination seems to me to be IT-specific so far.


Stop using the word "discrimination" as if it's valid in this context.

The male/female split in IT far, far, far, FAR outweighs any other  
industry outside professional sports and there is no good reason for  
it to exist.

ANYTHING which increases diversity is a good idea. If GGD is  
successful it will ensure its own extinction. I don't think there is a  
single person in attendance who will not cheer when the day comes that  
a female-only event looks like an anachronism.

Right now it's the only thing women in the sector have got and when  
people like you who don't know them, don't know their concerns, have  
never listened to their horror stories of how they're treated, act in  
such an absurd way, I frankly refuse to let you call them names and  
lecture them on equality because they want some space on their own  
terms for once.

Your arguments are absurd, petty, and have been argued to the point of  
defeat by people with more skill at rhetoric than you.

Just because you feel excluded, it doesn't mean you are. You're  
missing the entire point of everything about GGD, its structure, its  
rules, and its eventual goals. Until you do "get it" I suggest you  
temper your enthusiasm for filling our inboxes with the electronic  
version of rhetorical constipation you seem so adept at.

--
Paul Robinson

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