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Re: [Fsuk-manchester] Fwd: Event: Manchester Girl Geek Dinner #2 - 7:00


From: MJ Ray
Subject: Re: [Fsuk-manchester] Fwd: Event: Manchester Girl Geek Dinner #2 - 7:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:14:57 +0100
User-agent: Heirloom mailx 12.2 01/07/07

Paul Robinson <address@hidden> wrote: [...]
> The issue of whether Girl Geek Dinners was a good/bad thing was  
> discussed at considerable length on GeekUp when the first Manchester  
> event was organised a few months ago.
>
> The conclusion was that those protesting the loudest didn't like  
> feeling excluded, yet had been unable to understand that feeling of  
> exclusion was *exactly* what women in the "geek industries" had been  
> feeling prior to the invention of GGD events which now happen all  
> across the globe.

Got a link, please?

One difference is that it was a *feeling* of exclusion, not an actual
one.  Few "geek industries" events *actually* exclude women, as far as
I know.  It is a problem that there aren't enough events which are
attractive to some sections of the community, but it is also a problem
if there are events which are actually excluding people for irrelevant
reasons.  That's an ugly bug.

As mentioned later in the message, it's a matter of perception,
content and style.  Making it "no men except invited guests" is a lazy
way of changing the perception that encourages women while also
encouraging discrimination.  I have challenged such policies in the
past and actually been told to go create other events with "men-only"
policies - of course, I hope that few men would be stupid enough to
support such an event, but "women-only" events legitimise them.
That's really not good for equality, is it?

[...]
> It no more "evil, bad and wrong" than a get together around a single  
> point of discussion whether that be free software, programming in a  
> particular language or promotion of a particular industry. Would you  
> call it "discrimination" if I had a talk prepared on Ruby which was  
> rejected at a PHP conference? Or if people refused to listen to a talk  
> on how wonderful EULAs were at an FSUK meeting?

No, because (as far as I know) Ruby and EULA-love are not biological
attributes.  They're matters of choice.  (One could argue that
man/woman is a matter of choice these days, but that's pretty extreme.)

> NWDC members in attendance use it as a means to try and increase the  
> diversity of their own events. "You liked this event? Well, given your  
> industry, you might like to meet some other people at GeekUp/.NET UG/ 
> whatever". As a result, those groups have seen a slight increase in  
> female attendance which *has* to be a good thing for the community.

Would that have been much different if it was a women-targetted event
instead of a women-only-plus-guests event?

[...]
> If there are guys looking to go to the next one, I'll try and arrange  
> some invites providing you're not going to show me up and talk down to  
> women self-organising themselves into a community project that helps  
> the sector as a whole.

"Men, form a begging line here!"?


"John Rooke" <address@hidden> wrote:
> Come on guys, what's wrong with girl geeks getting together?  Or are
> there so many girls on FSUK already that some of the less assertive
> boys are starting to feel intimidated and excluded?

Swap "girls" and "boys", or replace them with two races or whatever,
and you might see what the problem is with that attitude.


Lucy <address@hidden> wrote: [...]
> I'm not sure how I stand on excluding men from the meal (unless they
> have an invite) - none of the online women's groups I know of exclude
> men (ubuntu-women, linux chix etc), but I can understand the
> reasoning. There is not equality in computing, particularly in FOSS,
> at present, so you need to look at things from a slightly different
> perspective. The meal is trying to prioritise women and to give them
> an opportunity to get together and socialise in a way that they
> clearly aren't able to do in the usual groups where men are in charge.

The meal may be trying to prioritise women, but hindering men on
biological grounds is a self-defeating way to do it.  Current
inequality should lead us to fight for equality, not to add more
inequality in a misguided attempt to fiddle the figures and meet
targets.  Greater inequality will never bring true equality.

(By the way, some chapters of linux chix etc did exclude men, last I
saw.)


Matt Lee <address@hidden> wrote:
> The reason such events exist, imo, is not to discriminate against men,
> but rather to provide a place where things like this don't happen:

Indeed.  The reason is noble.  The method is rotten.

[...]
> I hope that free software communities learn to deal with this issue and
> fix it, and fast. It's embarassing that we have a gender divide in this,
> and it isn't helped by men talking about 'discrimination' when there's
> any event for men.

I suspect you meant "any event for women".  Is my opinion invalid
because you know that I'm a man?  Way to demonstrate the problem!

If I'm told about any men-only event, I will criticise it and I will
probably also be better able to change it, because my opinion won't be
criticised merely because I'm a man.


By the way, before my last three or four jobs (the computing and maths
ones), I think most businesses I worked for were women-dominated (by
workforce numbers at least), across many different industries
(education, catering, fashion, packing...). I was usually only a
casual worker, but I think only one sector seemed bothered by the
inequality - education - and that had equal opportunity policies but
no specific lock-outs. I don't know what this all means.  Maybe I'm
just noting that I've been some sort of "minority" worker in the past
and I've not noticed similar no-women or no-men events there.  This
discrimination seems to me to be IT-specific so far.

Hope that explains,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237




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