Re: [Fsuk-manchester] Future Meetings

[MJ Ray]

Simon Ward <address@hidden> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 07:52:50PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> > Simon Ward <address@hidden> wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 03:03:30PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > > Well, the UK is in Europe, not America […]
> > >
> > > > That was part of the reason that AFFS was closer to FSFE, but I felt
> > > > there was also a sticking point in AFFS-FSF relations: there seemed to
> > > > be some fear of democratic popular associations in the FSF (which is
> > > > self-perpetuating IIRC).
> > >
> > > That’s one good reason for raising the profile of the FSF in the UK and
> > > putting these myths to bed.
> > 
> > OK, I'm confused.  What are the myths in the above and what helps show
> > they aren't myths?
>
> The myth that the FSF is any less relevant just because it’s based in
> the USA instead of Europe.  The strange belief that we’ve got the FSFE
> so we don’t need the FSF acting in Europe.

I really don't see why you infer that belief from those comments.
Remember, my earlier post partly quoted above, was in response to
Tim Dobson's suggestion that neither FSF nor FSFE have taken a
proactive role in the UK yet.  I was pointing out that FSFE have been
proactive in the UK already, trying to put that into context and
explaining why FSFE association would be a good and natural thing.

FSFE-praise is not necessarily FSF-bashing, OK?

> If there was a sticking point in relations between organisations,
> that it’s automatically something with the FSF. 

Put whatever interpretation on it you want, but I've realised that
democratic member control, autonomy and independence are fairly basic
values for me.  I felt FSF didn't really want to engage with AFFS
because AFFS could be changed by a ballot.  If there's not a fear of
democratic popular associations in the FSF (but I've not seen much
evidence of that), then that probably wasn't the reason and it was
some other problem.  All I can do is report my perception, really,
isn't it?  It's up to you what you do with that information.

> Also, not in the above, the myth that the FSFE
> has managed much more than the FSF in the UK—I acknowledge that the FSF
> could do with a kick, but I can’t say I’ve felt much coming from the
> FSFE either.  Has it all happened in the South of England and so just
> passed me by?

Yes, AFFS activities were pretty much limited to the South-East and
Midlands because that was where most of the members were.  IIRC, AFFS
open events were four Birmingham, two London and one Edinburgh (I
couldn't go, so I'm not 100% sure if that one happened and I don't
have all my notes available).  Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds events
were discussed at various times, but I don't think one ever happened,
partly due to a lack of competent help from those places.  For example
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/fsfe-uk/2003-09/msg00080.html

> Why did we, well, Matt Lee, now FSF campaigns manager,
> have to start Manchester Free Software if other organisations were doing
> such a good job?

I don't think they're doing a good job now, I don't think Matt Lee had
to start Manchester Free Software (so I thank him for doing it!), I
don't really know why he did it and it seems like the different
members have very different ideas of what it's for and how it should
develop.  That's fine, but I'd like the group to avoid mistakes like
thinking FSFE hasn't acted in the UK when deciding what to do next.

[...]
> This has already become an FSF vs FSFE thing, and it shouldn’t be.  This
> is likely why those inter-organisational relations became sticking
> points.

Why was this made into an FSF vs FSFE thing?  No, it shouldn’t be.

The AFFS-FSF jarring seemed independent of the AFFS-FSFE smoothness
to me and I was involved in both.


Paul Waring <address@hidden> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 07:52:50PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> > The FSFE is an EU person, so somewhat easier for
> > us Europeans to interact with on practical matters, as we share more
> > laws and culture.
>
> Except that most people I know think of themselves as British, not
> European. [...]

You and Gordon Brown?  I think I'm English and European, not British.

Regards,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
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