Re: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode

[Tim Cross]

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> Hi Org-mode community,
>
> At this year's EmascsConf, I had a 12 minute video where I explain why
> we do need a different name for the syntax of Org-mode in contrast to
> the Elisp implementation of GNU/Emacs Org-mode.
>
> I would like you to read my rationale and motivate you to use the term
> "Orgdown" for the syntax and "Orgdown1" for the first (very basic)
> level of Orgdown syntax elements.
>
> - The EmacsConf21 talk: https://emacsconf.org/2021/talks/org-outside
> - Orgdown site: https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown (please contribute!)
> - My motivation article: https://karl-voit.at/2021/11/27/orgdown/
>   - This is the longer version of my 12 minute EmacsConf21 video.
> - My personal copy of the video: 
> https://tube.graz.social/w/bgJVfjPLQAoJwLJQZoo3Hu
>
>
> Just as a sneak preview (not as a replacement for my motivation article):
>
> Orgdown is and will be defined in a set of levels, starting with very
> basic Orgdown1 (or OD1 or O↓1 or ⧬1 - depending on your coolness
> factor of choice :-) )
>
> - OD1 → 
> https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown/-/blob/master/doc/Orgdown-Levels.org
> - OD2 → will be defined in future
> - OD3 → will be defined in future
> - ...
> - OD∞ = Org-mode (by definition)
>
> Any OD-level needs to be compatible with Org-mode as implemented in
> Elisp for GNU/Emacs Org-mode according to https://orgmode.org. Any ODx
> is a sub-set of the syntax elements of ODy (with y>x).
>
> With introducing a new term specific for the syntax, we do get the
> benefit of getting a better way to handle Org-mode support in
> 3rd-party tools such as listed on
> https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown/-/blob/master/doc/Tool-Support.org
> (please extend!).
>
> Having a well-defined sub-set of Org-mode, I also do think that formal
> definitions of the Org-mode syntax will be easier to develop, starting
> with the very simple OD1 level.
>
> It would be awesome if we start referring to syntax support in
> 3rd-party tools with the corresponding OD levels.
>
> I want to emphasize that the goal of Orgdown is NOT and will never be
> something that is an alternative to our golden standard Org-mode. We
> will try hard not to get into the Markdown situation where you need to
> know the exact flavor of the markup in order to produce text.
>
> So far, the response was great at the conference and I do hope that
> this idea will get a life of its own, developing the standard further,
> bringing this magnificent lightweight markup to the digital world.
> This also eases some pain for users of GNU/Emacs when it comes to
> exchanging text-based data.
>

Hi Karl,

while I can appreciate the point you are making, I'm doubtful your
suggestion will gain the traction necessary to work. To me, it feels a
little like the frequent posts from RMS in the emacs-devel list where he
gets upset when people refer to Linux instead of GNU Linux. To some
extent, the distinction will be too subtle for many and often, it isn't
clear whether an issue is a syntax definition (orgdown) or an
implementation bug or just simply user misunderstanding.

Perhaps we just need a name for the markup syntax which doesn't actually
reference 'org' at all - it simply is the markup syntax which org
happens to use. A completely separate name might avoid confusion and
would make it very clear that the markup syntax is not org mode. Problem
is, naming is terribly difficult and I have no suggestions on what would
be a good name.

I have not yet viewed your video, but will certainly be doing so. Again,
agree with the sentiment of what your trying to do, just not convinced
it is compatible with basic human nature.