Re: [Orgmode] AI for orgmode

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha all,

The current documentation is terrific and it should grow and develop  
as it has.  The idea to augment it with "org-mode lite" is a good one,  
but will be a lot of work.

Following on the good ideas of others in the thread, would it be  
feasible to develop packets for specific Org-mode uses?  1)  
necessary .emacs code, 2) example Org-mode file, 3) tutorial document  
on Worg, and 4) screencast.

The newbie could cut and paste 1) to .emacs and re-start, load 2), and  
either read 3) or watch 4) as she followed along and edited 2).

My own experience has involved a moderate amount of time with 1) (with  
immeasurable help from Eric Schulte's emacs starter kit), and huge  
amounts of time experimenting with Org-mode file structures.  I still  
don't have the GTD stuff down to my satisfaction but think that if I'd  
spent an hour or two looking over Bernt Hansen's shoulder as he worked  
that I would have it nailed.

The basic idea is to get the newbie to a predetermined goal, *then*  
let her fiddle around with all the neat stuff in the manual, wiki,  
worg, blogs, list archive, etc.

All the best and TGIF,
Tom

On Mar 19, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Neil Hepburn wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I've just caught wind of this thread but I thought I would share my  
> own very recent experiences as a newbie in org-mode and my  
> experiences may help shed some light on things.
>
> Anyhow, I am quite new to org-mode (as in the last two or three  
> weeks). I'm also sort of new to emacs. I've used it occasionally  
> over the years but only recently started using it extensively  
> because of ESS and AucTeX. So, I am by no means an emacs expert ---  
> I know how to start it and use some of its tools but configuring it  
> is not something I can claim to know anything about.
>
> I stumbled across org-mode when I did a google search for GTD and  
> came across a couple of blogs and sites that talked about it. Each  
> of them provided snippets of their .emacs files and so that's where  
> I started. On several occasions I was stumped by a configuration  
> issue and tried looking in the on-line manual but didn't really get  
> anywhere. It wasn't until I tried using mobileorg that I started to  
> develop a better understanding of things. I was having trouble  
> getting mobileorg to work and Richard Moreland provided several key  
> bits of information and it on that basis that I started to piece  
> things together.
>
> In reflecting on that experience and looking back at the manual, the  
> manual makes perfect sense -- for someone more knowledgeable about  
> emacs and lisp in general.  However, to an emacs novice it seems to  
> assume a greater level of background knowledge than what may be  
> reasonable.
>
> However, that said, trying to "dumb-down" the manual so that emacs  
> novices are better served would likely do a disservice to  
> experienced emacs users -- they would have to wade through pages of  
> minutia and really basic stuff to get to what's important for them.
>
> I think that Darlan's idea of tutorials that start with the really  
> basic stuff and then build up to the good stuff has much merit.  In  
> some respects, what may be needed is a parallel documentation  
> stream: The current documentation as it is for those more  
> experienced and another one for newbies (Org-Mode for newbies sort  
> of thing.)
>
> Anyhow, just my two-cents worth.
>
> -Neil
>
> PS. Now that I have gotten the hang of org-mode to be reasonably  
> functional in it, I just cannot see myself going back to OmniFocus  
> and iCal -- both good programs in their own right but Org-mode can  
> just do it all so much better.
>
> On 2010-03-19, at 6:48 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>
> > I strongly agree with "just start simple". The manual is very good,  
> > but it
> > is better when you are looking for something specific. One of the  
> > best
> > things in org is that it is very flexible and you can use it in the  
> > way you
> > want, but in the beginning I didn't know "how I should use it" or  
> > "how I
> > want to use it". One thing that helped me was seeing the setup of  
> > power
> > users. This allowed me to quickly see what org could do and how it  
> > could be
> > done. Only after that I found "the best way to use org-mode" for me.
> >
> > But the problem is that I could only find "power users setups".  
> > Maybe some
> > tutorial that builds a setup like that from scratch would be good.  
> > The
> > tutorial could be broken in parts where each part adds something to  
> > the
> > previous one and the user could use the setup from parts he already  
> > viewed
> > for some time to really "feel org-mode". Reading each part would be  
> > more
> > rewarding then reading a lot of information and only after that  
> > trying
> > org-mode.
> >
> > Darlan
> >
> >
> > 2010/3/19 John Hendy <address@hidden>:
> > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik
> > > <address@hidden> wrote:
> > > > On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > >
> > > <beginning removed>
> > >
> > > > > BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel  
> > > > > who was
> > > > > seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate  
> > > > > with Emacs
> > > > > since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp  
> > > > > applications).
> > > > > He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately  
> > > > > he
> > > > > could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so  
> > > > > he had
> > > > > to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since  
> > > > > that is
> > > > > his job.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
> > > > > gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years.  
> > > > > but I
> > > > > could understand the frustration.
> > > >
> > > > I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the  
> > > > startup
> > > > pain in a clever way.
> > > >
> > > > - Carsten
> > >
> > > I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around  
> > > a couple
> > > of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on  
> > > planner and
> > > org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning  
> > > curve. I think
> > > the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning  
> > > tendencies.
> > > For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode,  
> > > seeing her
> > > code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely  
> > > revolting...
> > > not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but  
> > > because it made
> > > me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where  
> > > her and
> > > other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use.
> > >
> > > 'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:
> > >
> > > - Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org- 
> > > mode
> > > material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too,  
> > > but as
> > > someone who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would  
> > > have helped
> > > to just know some basics:
> > > --- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs,  
> > > then
> > > install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for  
> > > about 4
> > > years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it!
> > > --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a  
> > > location and
> > > file_name.org to create an org-mode file
> > > --- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s
> > >
> > > - Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual  
> > > is plainly
> > > awesome... but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new
> > > beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the  
> > > C-this
> > > M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical  
> > > levels.
> > > Example:
> > > --- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
> > > --- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines,
> > > unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the  
> > > top of the
> > > section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/ 
> > > de]mote, etc.
> > > --- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?
> > >
> > > - Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner  
> > > documentation.
> > > Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for  
> > > now)
> > > instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?
> > >
> > > - Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I  
> > > would have
> > > loved to know:
> > > --- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in  
> > > general and
> > > org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2)  
> > > that
> > > trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and  
> > > I was not
> > > sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life.
> > > --- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would  
> > > just start
> > > simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org- 
> > > mode. Postpone
> > > learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views,  
> > > exporting
> > > (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know  
> > > how to keep
> > > that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0),  
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > - In closing... I think beginners should have some message  
> > > tailored to them
> > > to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever  
> > > led them
> > > to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank  
> > > slates
> > > with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
> > > --- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting  
> > > and
> > > staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
> > > --- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut  
> > > encyclopedias...
> > > at first
> > > --- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a  
> > > little at a
> > > time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to  
> > > something useful
> > > in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the  
> > > full
> > > depth of what org-mode can do.
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> > > > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> > > > address@hidden
> > > > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> > >
> > >
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> > > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
> >
> > "SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: http://www.sdr4all.com/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> > address@hidden
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
>
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