Re: Gap buffer problem?

[Pip Cet]

Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com> writes:

> Pip Cet <pipcet@protonmail.com> writes:
>
>> Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Pip Cet <pipcet@protonmail.com> writes:
>>>> if we ever replace the gap buffer code, we should make sure its
>>>> replacement actually handles buffer text and text properties/intervals
>>>> in an integrated manner, rather than storing just buffer text).
>>>>
>>>> Pip
>>>
>>> And if I may add a wish to the future author: Make whatever you use
>>> persistent data structures, so that one could think of letting redisplay
>>> run concurrently. Really! :-)
>>
>> You won't be surprised to hear I've been playing with some code,
>
> Indeed, I was just thinking to myself "I knew it" :-).
> Two thumbs up!
>
>> so could I ask you to expand on this point? What precisely does
>> redisplay require? Full snapshotting or would it be sufficient to have
>> fine-grained locking?
>
> Maybe it's helpful when I tell something about the background. Some time
> last year I asked myself if I could make Emacs more than one of my
> plenty of CPU cores without solving the multi-threaded Elisp problem.
> And the idea was that I could do that, possibly, by letting redisplay
> happen in another thread.

This may be a very stupid idea, but why not use a separate process?
fork() is fast on GNU/Linux, and I suspect on macOS too, and the
redisplay child would receive a consistent snapshot of the data to
inspect and/or modify while coming up with the redisplay instructions,
which it would then send back via a pipe or shared memory to be executed
in the main process.

I suggested doing something similar for GC (the GC child would perform a
full GC and send back the Lisp_Objects which are definitely unreachable
via a pipe. No, I never figured out how to make that work for weak hash
tables which may resurrect references, I just made all hash tables
strong...), and in that case the pipe seemed sufficient for the amount
of data that was transferred, but I'm not sure how compact (or
otherwise) serialized redisplay "instructions" would be.

One issue I see is that fork() does a lot of housekeeping work in
addition to marking the child's memory as a COW copy of the parent's
memory at the time of the fork(). ISTR you can split that process on
GNU/Linux (probably not Android), so you'd already have a prepared
thread/LWP which wouldn't need to "start up" when you un-share the
memory, but I can't find the relevant manpage right now. However, I have
no real idea just how bad the fork() latency would be (as you point out,
most people have more CPU cores than they can use, so I don't consider
the approximate doubling of CPU usage a problem).

This would deal very nicely with fontification code attempting to modify
data it shouldn't, by ignoring such modifications. It would also deal
with catastrophic failure in the redisplay code, as it's insulated in a
separate process and we could just print a nice message in the main
process rather than crashing all of Emacs.

I'm emphatically not suggesting letting the redisplay child actually
communicate with the X server or equivalent. That would be much more
difficult.

In fact, I think a good way to test this approach would be to use the
tty code, since there's already a standard serialization of redisplay
instructions for tty displays: VT100 escape sequences.

> I later realized while thinking about the details, that this undertaking
> is an order of magnitude too large for me. Everything taking more than a
> few months is. And, in addition, I wouldn't want to do data structures
> in C anyway.

I think the VT100 case could be done as a weekend project (those always
end up taking several weeks for me...), but I'm not sure it's worth it
as VT100 redisplay isn't the common use case, and the performance
problems are more visible on GUI terminals.

And, like pretty much all Emacs ideas, this depends on having a better
GC.

(However, I've just experimented with an 8 GB process forking, and it's
much slower than I'd hoped for - about 70 ms.  I wouldn't be surprised
if most of that cost is setting up page tables for the ridiculously
small 4KB page size x86 uses, so it may work a lot better for AArch64
systems such as yours).

Pip