Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2016-07-06, at 17:42, Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden> wrote:

>> From: Marcin Borkowski <address@hidden>
>> Cc: address@hidden, address@hidden
>> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:32:25 +0200
>> 
>> 
>> On 2016-07-06, at 16:27, Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden> wrote:
>> 
>> >> From: Marcin Borkowski <address@hidden>
>> >> Cc: address@hidden, address@hidden
>> >> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:57:16 +0200
>> >> 
>> >> >> On 2016-07-02, at 12:07, Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> > You are missing the point.  The point is how much of the basic
>> >> >> > functionality one needs to master before they can use a single 
>> >> >> > feature
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> As I said, in case of Org, next to none.
>> >> >
>> >> > That is false (I do use Org seriously).
>> >> 
>> >> No, it isn't.
>> >> 
>> >> In order to start to use outlining (one feature) you only need to know
>> >> how to mark up headlines (bol + stars + space + title) and how to use
>> >> TAB to cycle visibility.
>> >
>> > If I need only outlining, I don't need Org, I can use the Outline
>> > mode.  We are talking about features that are in Org and only in Org.
>> >
>> > Come on, let's be serious in this discussion!
>> 
>> Sorry, Eli, but I can say the same.  Be serious.  As I wrote:
>> 
>> > I covered more than half a dozen extremely useful features
>> 
>> and you commented on _one_ of them.  And mentioning Outline mode in
>> a discussion on _ease of use_ as an alternative of Org is kind of
>> strange.
>
> It wasn't a discussion on ease of use.  Look back.  It was a
> discussion of how much of the mode one needs to learn before one
> becomes productive with one feature the mode provides.  You said: next
> to none, and gave outlining as the example.  To which I responded that
> outlining alone doesn't justify using Org at all, as there are simpler
> alternatives.

Well, this discussion is like Org-mode itself: it is about many
things. ;-)

Still, I did not "gave outlining as an example": I gave outlining as
_one of eight examples_.  And you have yet to give an example a "simpler
alternative" to Org's outlining, since Outline mode is not one.  Indeed,
AFAIR, one of the first motivations for Org was that Outline mode had
a terrible UI.  See here: https://youtu.be/oJTwQvgfgMM?t=353 (3-4
minutes is enough to see what I mean).

>> Compared to Org, Outline mode is almost unusable wrt visibility
>> cycling.  Yes, it has more capabilities, but it also has an order of
>> magnitude more commands to remember!
>
> Remembering commands is not an issue when you use a mode frequently
> enough, or infrequently enough.

But introducing something like 6 or 8 commands where one is enough is
grossly inefficient, both for the user's (muscle) memory and for the
limited set of convenient keybindings.

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University