Re: [Bug-gnupedia] Content Format

[Tom Chance]

Ah right hehe.
quite right.
We are Gnupedia.

sounds like a line straight from Star Trek, that...

Tom


--- Rob Scott <address@hidden> wrote: > hehe no
actually i was only saying that because he
> put
> the line:
> 
> > > > If we need free tools to help in the creation
> of
> > > > Nupedia, we can do it.
> 
> 
> --- Tom Chance <address@hidden> wrote: > I think
> what Rob is trying to say here (I might be
> > wrong) is that we would be missing a great
> > opportunity
> > if we kept articles in exactly the same way as
> > Nupedia. It may be that that way is simply the
> only
> > option, or by far the best, bot both Rob and I
> > disagree.
> > 
> > However I suppose if people really want to keep
> the
> > articles themselves in individual files, the way
> to
> > go
> > is to index them with a mySQL database (for
> > searching
> > etc.) and to keep the files themselves as simple
> > text
> > files in a large respository. All the searching,
> > parsing and displaying of the articles would be
> done
> > by Perl (the internet's best language, which could
> > easily convert m$ word, LaTeX, MathML etc.
> documents
> > into formatted plain text. It could also parse the
> > text files for things like <author> and interpret
> > them
> > in the same sort of way that XML would be doing),
> > and
> > displayed on the frontend in simply html form (as
> > XML
> > won't work with many browsers, even back to
> Netscape
> > 4.6 whose support for XML is awful). 
> > 
> > 
> > Tom Chance
> > 
> > 
> > --- Rob Scott <address@hidden> wrote: > WE
> > ARE
> > NOT NUPEDIA
> > > 
> > > --- Jean-Daniel Fekete
> <address@hidden>
> > > wrote: > 
> > > > Bob Dodd <address@hidden> Wrote :
> > > > 
> > > > > Why are we getting so hung up on content
> > format?
> > > > >
> > > > > Clearly there is a *minimum* level of
> > > information
> > > > we need to know
> > > > about
> > > > > the entry (however that gets submitted and
> > > > stored), and we need to
> > > > know
> > > > > what format the content is in, in order to
> > > present
> > > > the content to the
> > > > > user. But that's all.
> > > > >
> > > > > This whole thing about HTML, XML, Tei,
> Latex,
> > > > MathML for content
> > > > > description is meaningless, and so quickly
> > > > outdated by the "march of
> > > > > technology" as to make discussion almost
> (but
> > > not
> > > > quite) pointless...
> > > > 
> > > > No, this is not true.
> > > > All the "big" libraries like the Lib. of
> > Congress
> > > > are concerned about
> > > > persistence of technology.  They have not been
> > > able
> > > > to re-read tapes
> > > > that have been written ten years ago.  They
> know
> > > > what they are talking
> > > > about for data format and encoding, as well as
> > > > keeping textual
> > > > information for a long time.
> > > > 
> > > > However, they are now considering XML as
> mature
> > > > enough to be the
> > > > infrastructure for encoding  their textual
> > > archives
> > > > and they consider
> > > > TEI as the good format.
> > > > 
> > > > The point is not to have the latest technology
> > > here.
> > > >  The point is to be
> > > > able to describe an encyclopedia faithfully
> > > without
> > > > losing important
> > > > information.  If technology changes, it is
> easy
> > to
> > > > translate from
> > > > XML/TEI into something else that suits our
> > needs.
> > > > 
> > > > To make a parallel, if you consider the GNU
> > projet
> > > > ten years ago, RMS
> > > > chose the "C" language because it was mature
> > > enough
> > > > and could be used to
> > > > implement all desirable applications.  "C" has
> > not
> > > > been chosen because
> > > > it was the "best" language, nor the preferred
> > > > language of RMS, just
> > > > because it was mature.
> > > > The point is the same with XML and TEI that
> can
> > be
> > > > paralleled with Unix
> > > > (the infrastructure) and "C" (the language).
> > > > 
> > > > > There is a minimum practical limit on
> content
> > > > formats in that our
> > > > > "editors" (however you wish to define that
> > term)
> > > > need to be able to
> > > > > check for spam etc. After that, it's up to
> > > > presentation tools to
> > > > decide
> > > > > how to handle the format of the material
> (e.g.
> > > > some may not be able to
> > > > 
> > > > > display Chinese or Arabic fonts), and when
> > they
> > > > can't how they inform
> > > > > the user (e.g. a prompt to "Format xyz not
> > > > supported: save to disk?")
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's be honest, the vast majority of people
> > > don't
> > > > even know latex or
> > > > > Tei exists, would be terrified of writing
> > > > XML/HTML/WML, and would
> > > > > expect to write their (formatted) entries in
> > > > Microsoft Word, embedding
> > > > 
> > > > > pictures created using Excel and Visio. If
> we
> > > want
> > > > their entries (and
> > > > > it's pointless even saying "text files",
> > because
> > > > most people would
> > > > > think that a Word document *is* a text
> file),
> > we
> > > > need to accept those
> > > > > formats too... So long as storing an
> > retrieveing
> > > > the content doesn't
> > > > > have copyright issues, I think you have to
> > leave
> > > > it to presentation
> > > > > tools, as to which format they support, and
> > when
> > > > they can only show
> > > > our
> > > > > "mimumum" information.
> > > > 
> > > > You can already create XML/TEI documents using
> > > Emacs
> > > > and FrameMaker.
> > > > It would be better if Microsoft Office could
> > > produce
> > > > it but I don't
> > > > expect that in the near future.
> > > > If we need free tools to help in the creation
> of
> > > > Nupedia, we can do it.
> > > > But it would be a much difficult task to build
> > > > another XML DTD plus the
> > > > tools, given the DTD would evolve quickly.
> > > > 
> > > > > OK, you can encourage certain content
> formats,
> > > but
> > > > you can't be too
> > > > > prescriptive. We also have to live in the
> real
> > > > world, where most of
> > > > our
> > > > > authors may be computer literate, but their
> > idea
> > > > of document
> > > > production
> > > > > is to use commercial tools (that often come
> > > "free"
> > > > with their PCs).
> > > > 
> > > > You are right, the format required for a
> > > > encyclopedia is probably
> > > > complicated.  I have written some encyclopedic
> > > > articles (about
> > > > PostScript and PDF) and it took me time to do
> it
> > > > right.  Somebody
> > > > re-entered it in FrameMaker and did the
> > editorial
> > > > work to fit the
> > > > quality of the encyclopedia.
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how to avoid that.  I could have
> > done
> > > > it, but you cannot
> > > > expect a specialist of say botanics to follow
> > the
> > 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
>
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